Primer Pockets

[billt]

If a "Racist" is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal, what do you call a neat freak who is losing an argument with a fellow conservative? Oh, and nice avatar; she looks very "pretty".

I'm not trying to argue. I'm enjoying your aimless insults, and passionate defense of your dirty ammo.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I'm not trying to argue. I'm enjoying your aimless insults, and passionate defense of your dirty ammo.

While you sit there polishing your brass in your surgically clean reloading theater!

Never mind me, I'm just heading out to shoot some of my filthy ammo this morning. 30 rounds of .223 yesterday loaded and shot in groups of five. Only cleaning was wiping the sizing lube off the necks. Prolly do some .308 today, maybe some more .45 too since I'll have the extra time ;-)

 

[billt]

Never mind me, I'm just heading out to shoot some of my filthy ammo this morning. 30 rounds of .223 yesterday loaded and shot in groups of five. Only cleaning was wiping the sizing lube off the necks. Prolly do some .308 today, maybe some more .45 too since I'll have the extra time ;-)

Go for it big guy. You da' man!

 

[WyldeShot]

I miss spoke about brass cleaning earlier. I personally don't care if my brass is clean, I especially don't care if it bright, as long as it shoots well. It does make it a little easier to find when it shines. I was speak more about the ability to get the primer pockets clean. Up until now, I have been tumbling and then decapping. I'm going to reverse that process and see if the pockets are any cleaner after I tumble.

 

[billt]

Up until now, I have been tumbling and then decapping. I'm going to reverse that process and see if the pockets are any cleaner after I tumble.

It depends on what you tumble with. I always deprime and resize before I tumble. That allows the primer pockets to be cleaned with the Stainless Steel media. And at the same time it removes any and all resizing lubricant from both the outside of the cases, as well as inside the case necks. The latter is more important because it eliminates the chance for any powder contamination from case lube. You can't remove lube from inside the case neck by wiping. If you do this with ground corn cob and load on a progressive press, you can then substitute your resizing die for just a decapping die. That will force a decapping pin through each case, and in the process remove any corn cob from the flash hole. I used that method before I switched to SS media.

If you go with SS media be sure to get pin media that is at least .045 diameter. If you use .040 diameter SS pins they can and will double up and get stuck in the flash hole because the flash hole is .080 diameter. Regardless of how you do it, or what media you go with, it's always better to deprime and resize first. That allows the primer pockets to be cleaned at the same time. They just won't get as clean with other media, as they will with SS media.

 

[BE Mike]

I had the good fortune to learn reloading and shooting techniques from an older gentleman who once placed 3rd at a 1,000 yard Wimbledon Cup match. His handmade targets were sheets of cardboard with postage stamps attached, and rarely did one of his groups exceed those dimensions. The first day I met him, he was shooting a 6mm PPC and those bug-hole groups changed my perspective. By the end of that day, he had helped me adjust my shooting form enough to wring a .580" out of my sporter-weight 270 Win...and that was still twice as big as his groups.

He brought his reloading tools with him to the range. Since he was only decapping, neck-sizing, priming, charging and seating, he didn't need a massive press. Like Shimbumseeker mentioned earlier in the thread, this grizzled veteran would show up with a relative handful of cases and shoot them over and over, that day. His "cleaning" equipment consisted of a cotton rag. No rotary tumbler with steel pins to polish his brass until it shined, just a rag to wipe off the Imperial sizing die wax. He said a firm crimp was absolutely essential for accurate loading, but that he hadn't cleaned a primer pocket in forever. He suggested that if a steel brush or tool could be used to clean away the miniscule amount of residue from the walls of the primer pocket, that he figured any new primer he seated would pretty much do the same thing.

It seems to me that reloaders concerned primarily with accuracy have little concern for brass that gleams, while most of those obsessed with the appearance of their brass shoot a high volume of ammo from semi-auto guns and are (rightfully) concerned about their progressive press not seating a primer correctly, creating the potential for a slam fire.

<comment removed for the sake of diplomacy> Sometimes, you're just wrong, or at the very least, in the minority. You clean til they shine...I've got groups to shoot.

Thanks for the very appropriate "old school" perspective. Your description of your mentor's reloading procedures, at the range, was a common practice, back in the day, for precision riflemen. There is a very good lesson there.

 

[Broom_jm]

It depends on what you tumble with. I always deprime and resize before I tumble.

You mean to say you run those FILTHY cases through your resizing dies?! :O

I try to make sure my brass is "clean" before I run any through my dies, to avoid having any grit or grime scratch up the dies.

If you're in AZ, that means you must have been up awful early to reply to this thread before I redacted my untoward comments. No rebuttal on the semi-auto vs. precision rifle reloading tendencies?

 

[billt]

No rebuttal on the semi-auto vs. precision rifle reloading tendencies?

What is it you want me to rebut? You're the one who's convinced you can't load a bucket of cases like these:



Shoot like this:



And here's clue you might want to think about...E-Mail notifications include the first post you reply with.

 

[ctomuir]

I clean the pockets as well ,you can't see if there's any damage around the flash hole

 

[Broom_jm]

I clean the pockets as well ,you can't see if there's any damage around the flash hole

Have you ever encountered any damage around the flash hole, after the first loading of a case? I check new brass, and often deburr the flash hole, but have never encountered damage afterward. What kind of damage would one look to find?

 

[ghitch75]

I don't know where you were living in the 80's, but people have been cleaning brass decades before that. Don't make up foolish $h!t to support a stupid point.

i was alive and well in the 80's and i never seen hide nor hair of a tumbler back then.......Hornady third addition say's wipe clean and for really dirty cases use there wipe on case cleaner......no made up foolish **** here......

 

[billt]

i was alive and well in the 80's and i never seen hide nor hair of a tumbler back then.......Hornady third addition say's wipe clean and for really dirty cases use there wipe on case cleaner......no made up foolish **** here......

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough. Which wouldn't surprise me, seeing as you show zero interest in clean brass. I purchased my first tumbler new in 1972 from a small LGS. Google it today and you'll get the phone book. That should tell you something right there.

 

[Broom_jm]

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough. Which wouldn't surprise me, seeing as you show zero interest in clean brass. I purchased my first tumbler new in 1972 from a small LGS. Google it today and you'll get the phone book. That should tell you something right there.

Just out of curiosity, when did you first start cleaning cases with a rotary tumbler and wet stainless steel pins as media?

Now, I know better than to expect a genuine answer, so let's get straight to the follow-on question: How did you and your guns EVER survive with all that "filthy" brass that was only cleaned with a vibratory tumbler and dry media?!

 

[tenring]

20/40 corn cobs and a rotary tumbler and my brass is "clean", use of the stainless steel or corn cobs falls under the category of personal preference.

 

[billt]

Just out of curiosity, when did you first start cleaning cases with a rotary tumbler and wet stainless steel pins as media?

Now, I know better than to expect a genuine answer, so let's get straight to the follow-on question: How did you and your guns EVER survive with all that "filthy" brass that was only cleaned with a vibratory tumbler and dry media?!

Actually the rotary tumbler was the first one I purchased back in 1972. Thumblers has been making their tumblers for decades. They are used for wet tumbling by many gemstone polishers, and are well suited for brass cleaning. My first tumbling was done dry with crushed Walnut media. I didn't care for the results much. I then purchased some ceramic media in or around 1975, and used that with a lot of success until Stainless Steel media came along around 15 years ago. It's been around longer than that, and was primarily used to clean high dollar, precision parts in the aerospace industry, which is how I found out about it. The only problem with the ceramic media is it's too large to clean the inside of cases or primer pockets. So I was always on the lookout for something that would. I found it with Stainless Steel media. So have a lot of other reloaders. Most all the better shooters supply houses like Brownell's and Sinclair International sell kits for it today, because of how well it's caught on.

I also purchased one of the first excellent Dillon "Magnum" FL-2000 vibratory case cleaners, (it was the predecessor of the newer CV-2001 Model), when they came out in the early 80's sometime. I still have it, and use it for some brass that has already been through the Stainless Media treatment, and doesn't require a heavy cleaning. It's also good for a quick tumble to remove case lube after resizing. It's a much better and faster process than sitting there trying to wipe them off with a rag individually. As I've shown you I load ammunition by the bucketful, and dicking around with a wiping rag on every case is nonsense. I doesn't work very well, and I would never get done.

I like nice clean ammunition, and plenty of it. You seem to like small amounts of dirty ammo. I've already disproven your myth about...."precision reloading methods". You've seen my posted target, along with how my progressive loaded, pretty, shiny ammo, all has a tendency to go through the same hole. Not even using match bullets. So why should I mess with proven success, through tens of thousands of rounds, in over 4 decades of shooting? I get compliments on my ammo most every time I'm at the range shooting it. Both on how it looks, as well as how it performs. Many of our club members have asked me how to get started, what they need to buy, how to do it, etc. Just like they have here.

All of this for some inexplicable reason, has your panties all twisted in a knot. Why, I have no idea. I'm not discrediting your methods, anymore than I care the Amish still use a horse and buggy to get to town. In fact, I've been you back when I got started in reloading in the early 70's. I just wasn't satisfied with reloads that looked like reloads. So I searched for a better method to produce nicer looking, better performing ammunition. That allowed me to maintain both high quality, and accuracy at the same time. I moved forward and found that method. I still reload the same way today, over 40 years later. If and when I find an easier, better, faster way to produce the same ammo, I'll employ it. Until then I'll just have to contend with shooting one hole groups with my nice clean, shiny, progressive loaded ammunition. Now, what else do you want to know?

 

[ghitch75]

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough. Which wouldn't surprise me, seeing as you show zero interest in clean brass. I purchased my first tumbler new in 1972 from a small LGS. Google it today and you'll get the phone book. That should tell you something right there.

at the 3 LGS i went to there where no tumbler's in the 80's(Bloomington IN)......i started reloading in 1979 at the rip age of 15......i never seen anyone tumble brass till the early 90's......as far as clean brass goes i have 2 vib.type and a thumper rotory.....BTW you don't have a clue at what interests me and when it come to me you don't have a clue what your talkin' about.......so get you facts straight.....

 

[Broom_jm]

Actually the rotary tumbler was the first one I purchased back in 1972. Thumblers has been making their tumblers for decades. They are used for wet tumbling by many gemstone polishers, and are well suited for brass cleaning. My first tumbling was done dry with crushed Walnut media. I didn't care for the results much. I then purchased some ceramic media in or around 1975, and used that with a lot of success until Stainless Steel media came along around 15 years ago. It's been around longer than that, and was primarily used to clean high dollar, precision parts in the aerospace industry, which is how I found out about it. The only problem with the ceramic media is it's too large to clean the inside of cases or primer pockets. So I was always on the lookout for something that would. I found it with Stainless Steel media. So have a lot of other reloaders. Most all the better shooters supply houses like Brownell's and Sinclair International sell kits for it today, because of how well it's caught on.

I also purchased one of the first excellent Dillon "Magnum" FL-2000 vibratory case cleaners, (it was the predecessor of the newer CV-2001 Model), when they came out in the early 80's sometime. I still have it, and use it for some brass that has already been through the Stainless Media treatment, and doesn't require a heavy cleaning. It's also good for a quick tumble to remove case lube after resizing. It's a much better and faster process than sitting there trying to wipe them off with a rag individually. As I've shown you I load ammunition by the bucketful, and dicking around with a wiping rag on every case is nonsense. I doesn't work very well, and I would never get done.

I like nice clean ammunition, and plenty of it. You seem to like small amounts of dirty ammo. I've already disproven your myth about...."precision reloading methods". You've seen my posted target, along with how my progressive loaded, pretty, shiny ammo, all has a tendency to go through the same hole. Not even using match bullets. So why should I mess with proven success, through tens of thousands of rounds, in over 4 decades of shooting? I get compliments on my ammo most every time I'm at the range shooting it. Both on how it looks, as well as how it performs. Many of our club members have asked me how to get started, what they need to buy, how to do it, etc. Just like they have here.

All of this for some inexplicable reason, has your panties all twisted in a knot. Why, I have no idea. I'm not discrediting your methods, anymore than I care the Amish still use a horse and buggy to get to town. In fact, I've been you back when I got started in reloading in the early 70's. I just wasn't satisfied with reloads that looked like reloads. So I searched for a better method to produce nicer looking, better performing ammunition. That allowed me to maintain both high quality, and accuracy at the same time. I moved forward and found that method. I still reload the same way today, over 40 years later. If and when I find an easier, better, faster way to produce the same ammo, I'll employ it. Until then I'll just have to contend with shooting one hole groups with my nice clean, shiny, progressive loaded ammunition. Now, what else do you want to know?

I know everything I need to know.

I like reloading and am never in a hurry to get it done. I don't much care if I get compliments on my ammo; raised eye-brows at my groups are sufficient.

I don't know too many guys approaching 60 who obsess over aesthetics with their reloading. I guess you're just special.

 

[billt]

at the 3 LGS i went to there where no tumbler's in the 80's(Bloomington IN).

Is that supposed to mean something? Perhaps you should frequent better stocked gun shops? I'm not getting why you're pointing out shops didn't have what you're not looking for in the first place?

 

[ghitch75]

Is that supposed to mean something? Perhaps you should frequent better stocked gun shops? I'm not getting why you're pointing out shops didn't have what you're not looking for in the first place?

wasn't looking for them.....i'm pointing out that tumblers where not around here in gun shops in the 80's.....what is so hard to understand?????

 

[shibumiseeker]

I know everything I need to know.

I like reloading and am never in a hurry to get it done. I don't much care if I get compliments on my ammo; raised eye-brows at my groups are sufficient.

I don't know too many guys approaching 60 who obsess over aesthetics with their reloading. I guess you're just special.

Meh, I have a friend who waxes his garage floor every few weeks. I don't understand it at all, but it makes him happy. As long as he's not calling me names or looking down on me for not waxing my garage floor we get along great.

I just looked at the primer pockets of the batch of 5 .223 I have been shooting the last few days, the primer pockets after 25+ firings look like they did after the first firing, so it clearly doesn't build up.

FWIW though, as some people like spotless clean and that's what makes them happy, economy is what makes me happy. I found those five pieces of brass on the gravel road where I do my daily 20 mile bike ride. I actually found about ten but they had been run over a few times so a couple I threw out and a couple I made 300BLK brass out of because the necks and shoulders were crushed beyond recovery.

Just yesterday I finally had one of them split the neck (I had been watching a crack grow for the last couple loadings) enough that it was no longer usable. So I chopped off the neck and made a piece of 300BLK brass out of it and am shooting it through my Handi-Rifle when I shoot the remaining .223. I've gotten 3 loadings through it so far. That kind of economy makes ME happy, while some will wonder why I bother since I have about 30-40k pieces of .223/5.56 brass and could easily throw them out. Now I'm curious as to whether I could take the 300BLK brass and load it for 9mm if it finally fails because of neck splitting. Since I don't shoot or load for 9mm I probably won't, but I am curious, and if it were possible it'd tickle me even more from an efficiency of material use standpoint.