Range time: 20', 30' and 40' w/5 then 6 9mms

[Bosshoss]

For discussion purposes, accuracy = precision ... it does not mean shooting to point of aim. Accuracy is how well the pistol groups. I understand what you meant, but it is worth noting.
As has been stated many times, dealing with an issue of POI not matching POA is a different thing than dealing with a pistol that will not group well. I know you understand what the gun is doing, but it makes discussion easier if everyone is using the generally agreed upon terms.

.

WebSnyper several of us have tried to explain this to him but it doesn't take.
He has sold several guns and kept ones that were less accurate because of his "scoring system" and his inability to shoot said gun accurately. Instead of working and learning a certain guns trigger he quickly gives up and sells it, which is certainly his business.
Like you said(and others have told him) he judges a gun by where the hits are on the target and not group size. A couple of hits in the red part of the target(or blue depending on which target he is using) and the rest scattered around it is better than 5 shots touching but a few inch's from the red zone.
He is having fun but I see him as a buyer/seller more than a shooter. He is trying to buy shooting ability which there are many out there doing the same but he would have been a better shooter buying ammo instead of more guns.
I wish him luck in his retirement and hope he can continue shooting as much as he wants.

 

[doddg]

Have you tried playing with different ammo? In some cases, it can make a huge difference on POA/POI.

For discussion purposes, accuracy = precision ... it does not mean shooting to point of aim. Accuracy is how well the pistol groups. I understand what you meant, but it is worth noting.
As has been stated many times, dealing with an issue of POI not matching POA is a different thing than dealing with a pistol that will not group well. I know you understand what the gun is doing, but it makes discussion easier if everyone is using the generally agreed upon terms.

My point was that I think you would be better served in this case until you get the sights dealt with would be to hold the sights level (front and back) but still raise your hold over. Angling the gun with the front sight not lined up with the rears would not be how I would hold... just my 2 cents.

WebSnyper several of us have tried to explain this to him but it doesn't take.
He has sold several guns and kept ones that were less accurate because of his "scoring system" and his inability to shoot said gun accurately. Instead of working and learning a certain guns trigger he quickly gives up and sells it, which is certainly his business.
Like you said(and others have told him) he judges a gun by where the hits are on the target and not group size. A couple of hits in the red part of the target(or blue depending on which target he is using) and the rest scattered around it is better than 5 shots touching but a few inch's from the red zone.
He is having fun but I see him as a buyer/seller more than a shooter. He is trying to buy shooting ability which there are many out there doing the same but he would have been a better shooter buying ammo instead of more guns.
I wish him luck in his retirement and hope he can continue shooting as much as he wants.

Mark, I have used different brands and different grains, and it does make a difference since some were made for the 124 grain.

Web, I'll try that next round. I did that recently with a SW Victory with a red dot, discovering if I shot 3-4 inches above the bullseye, it would hit the bullseye.
Then, I simply adjusted the red dot.
I have had success with some guns by bringing the front sight above the rear sight line or even by putting it lower than the plane of the rear sight on a gun I cannot adjust.
I didn't realize I should not be doing that. I would rather adjust the sights, if I'm able, of course.

Bosshoss, I always read and try to learn what I am doing wrong since I know I'm the X factor.
I am impatient, admittingly.
When I am vetting 5 guns and I'm not seeing progress with one and the others are shooting well for me, it is true that I keep what is working for me and sell the one that is not.
I don't remember ever letting go of a gun that had 5 shots touching.
I would know that the outliers were all my fault.
If I have done that, it must have been b/c I couldn't adjust the group toward the bullseye.

I have had some sights that simply would not adjust, and rather than buy new sights for it: I sell it.
I remember an H&K that I loved, but I simply could not shoot it, or more recently a Beretta Compact (if memory serves): both shot low for me, and I know others would be fine with either gun.

The SW 5906 is a gun that I would buy some modest sights for it if that would fix the issue, since I do want to keep it long-term.
Most guns I do not have that emotional investment.
I don't think I have a gun where 5 shots are touching since I'm not that good of a shot.
I am going to look at some of my range pics tonight to see if I can find one.
I can imagine it at 12', perhaps, or if I got lucky, on 20', but 30' or 40': I wish.

 

[Bosshoss]

Doddg I never said you had a target with the holes touching. I was giving an example.
You have stated many times that a certain gun won because to had more hits in the red or whatever color target you are using, when another gun had a better group but wasn't in the center of the target so it didn't have any or not as many hits in the red. The better gun is penalized for sights not being adjusted or the shooters ability.
Keep doing it your way and have fun it doesn't matter what we think.
Just trying to help.

 

[doddg]

Doddg I never said you had a target with the holes touching. I was giving an example.
You have stated many times that a certain gun won because to had more hits in the red or whatever color target you are using, when another gun had a better group but wasn't in the center of the target so it didn't have any or not as many hits in the red. The better gun is penalized for sights not being adjusted or the shooters ability.
Keep doing it your way and have fun it doesn't matter what we think.
Just trying to help.

I feel like my time is winding down with retirement looming in less than 5 weeks.
Ammo for range time will be the unsustainable expense at the pace I could enjoy this past 2 yrs.
I have trimmed down to a "minimum" of guns and love all that I have left.
It will be agonizing to continue to trim any of what I have remaining, whether it be my beloved .22LRs or 9mms.
I really had a campaign going and have ended up with less .22LRs than 9mms, quite by accident, making some hard decisions.
I could be happy with any of what I have left in either caliber.
I'm sure my trimming methods of brutal and short-sighted range pics could have been done better, but I have ended up with some really practical, fun and "top-of-the-line" tools (at my price points) in this 2 yr. journey. Small potatoes to most here, having from $180 to $1210 invested.
Having owned 8 different CZs has been the most fun, and I didn't learn about them until the summer of 2018.
I still have three CZs with the Shadow 2 being my prized piece. I intend to sell at least 1 of the other 2 (P-07 & my 2nd 75 SP-01).
Eventually, no hurry yet: I'm still working.

 

[deo62]

Your journey has been a joy to watch unfold. If ammo gets too much, just find an easy part time job (2 or 3 days a week) helps a lot.

 

[doddg]

Your journey has been a joy to watch unfold. If ammo gets too much, just find an easy part time job (2 or 3 days a week) helps a lot.

Thanks for the encouragement!

My deepest regret in the past 2 yrs. is that my approach of 110 mph has put some people off since I don't take myself too seriously and am quite the amateur doing so many things wrong in the midst of many here who are quite professional about all things guns.
But, I knew I had a limited run and I would fade away as life ensued. It has been an invigorating 2 yrs.: exactly what a hobby should be.

I have thought about the P.T. job approach, but really have no idea about how retirement will unfold.
Money for the basics is in place, but extra expenses have limited coverage.
The students are always asking me, as well as my friends, what I plan to do in retirement.
I tell them I've never retired before and have no idea.

 

[gmcttr]

...I have trimmed down to a "minimum" of guns and love all that I have left.
It will be agonizing to continue to trim any of what I have remaining, whether it be my beloved .22LRs or 9mms...

I suggest an end for now to the trimming. What you have is paid for, but if you sell one the money will quickly slip away and won't be there to support your shooting hobby.

 

[doddg]

I suggest an end for now to the trimming. What you have is paid for, but if you sell one the money will quickly slip away and won't be there to support your shooting hobby.

Always enjoy your sane advice and input!
I would have loved to held onto more of my beloved .22LRs, but I can't have too much money sitting in hardware in the safe.
Because of ongoing medical expenses and the usual "other" life expenses I must replace monies spent for the hobby to the savings account for some of these future upcoming expenses: such is life.
Money used when I sell a gun the past few months has been used for other gun purchases or ancillary gun products (instead of taking money out of savings or checking), and in retirement, as I sell, the money will be used to buy ammo.
When that money is gone and there are no more guns left I'm willing to sell is when things get really tight and range time will be compromised.
I have already started shooting less at the range in preparation for the realities of retirement.
Just Monday, I only shot 120 rounds instead of my usual 200 - 300 rounds in a range session, that I used to indulge in, which was a new record for me.

 

[700 LTR 223]

I would have loved to held onto more of my beloved .22LRs, but I can't have too much money sitting in hardware in the safe.

Just Monday, I only shot 120 rounds instead of my usual 200 - 300 rounds in a range session, that I used to indulge in, which was a new record for me.

At least with the 22s they are the least expensive to shoot. About the only 22 handgun I ever contemplate selling is my 10" Ruger MKII. Eyesight is poor enough not to be able to take advantage of the long sight radius.

Now for me shooting 120 rounds would be a lot more than normal. Last Sunday in the cold and wet I shot two 357 and two 22s and think my total round count was around 80 rounds.

I sure hope that you are still able to enjoy shooting regularly in your upcoming retirement.

 

[doddg]

At least with the 22s they are the least expensive to shoot. About the only 22 handgun I ever contemplate selling is my 10" Ruger MKII. Eyesight is poor enough not to be able to take advantage of the long sight radius.

Now for me shooting 120 rounds would be a lot more than normal. Last Sunday in the cold and wet I shot two 357 and two 22s and think my total round count was around 80 rounds.

I sure hope that you are still able to enjoy shooting regularly in your upcoming retirement.

Wow! A 10" barrel on a revolver: sounds like a keeper to me!
I'll still be able to shoot, but I'll have to limit my rounds at any single range visit so I can shoot more often and not burn through my ammo.
I do want to do some Steel Match Shooting at MCF&G.
I've been told it's a blast.
I have practice once there and a couple of other times at other ranges.

 

[doddg]

40' tonight with 4 of the large 9mms with 1 medium in the mix.
5 rounds each to begin with (then I added 5 more).
Everything done on a rest.
CZ Shadow 2 always the best with all 5 rounds in the inner blue & gold circles.
CZ 75 SP-01 nest in like with all 5 rounds barely in the inner blue and gold circles.
Only 2 rds. each from the Bersa XT & CZ P-07 in the inner blue and gold circles.
If I used 124 grain, results might have been better. I'll try that next.

I need to cut one of these 9mms, but I love each and every one for different reasons.
I can adjust the Bersa TP9XT rear sights but some of the others I can only adjust the vertical, and others I don't know how to adjust at all.
The Shadow 2 is still the best and favorite for all the obvious reasons, with the 75 SP-01 coming up next and I have only $400 in it, so it will be easy to sell, but not this week, or month.
I definitely don't need to keep both the SP-01 and the Bersa TP9XT, but I'll be slow to sell either until I feel I must.
Which ever one does the best for me, but the Bersa comes with 5 mags and the sights are easily adjustable.
The CZ P-07 is a totally different gun than any of the others, so I hate to part with it also.


This pic is the same as the above with another 5 rounds added to each target from each gun.
8 (maybe 9 rds) with the Shadow 2 on the inner blue and inner gold circles.
5 (maybe 7 or 8 rds) with the 75 SP-01 on the inner blue and inner gold circles.
5 rds with the CZ P-07.
3 rds with the Bersa TP9XT.

 

[700 LTR 223]

Wow! A 10" barrel on a revolver: sounds like a keeper to me!
I'll still be able to shoot, but I'll have to limit my rounds at any single range visit so I can shoot more often and not burn through my ammo.
I do want to do some Steel Match Shooting at MCF&G.
I've been told it's a blast.
I have practice once there and a couple of other times at other ranges.

My 10" is actually a semi-auto. The Steel Match Shooting does sound like it would be fun. Friend of mine wants me to shoot at Camp Perry this July in the 22 bullseye match but my one had shooting is not where it should be. I might shoot in the Glock match they have there - I might get a Glock 48 and see what I can do , at least two handed shooting is allowed in the Glock match.

 

[doddg]

Range time with a SW Shield 2.0 on a rest at 20' & 30':

20' free hand
With SW Shield 2.0 & Bersa TPR9c & CZ P-07 & Ruger SR9c:

 

[doddg]

Using Federal American Eagle 147 grain this round to see if helped with the "shooting low" issue, but I really needed to go out to 30' or 40' but didn't have time.
Only 20' and using a rest to see each guns ability w/o me being the X factor.
Two of these guns will be sold, and I love everyone of them.
Retirement is only 2 weeks /11 days away.

 

[gmcttr]

... and using a rest to see each guns ability w/o me being the X factor....

The rest helps, but we are still the "X factor". Otherwise at 20' those would all most likely be one ragged hole groups.

 

[doddg]

The rest helps, but we are still the "X factor". Otherwise at 20' those would all most likely be one ragged hole groups.

The reality of that can't be denied by me any longer, though I've tried to be in denial.
I've tried buying that "next" gun that would minimize the "me" factor, but any of these guns are great, which others have pointed out in the past when I had other guns.
I know I will not be doing better groups with a "better" gun.
Any of these guns when I put them in my hand I am totally happy with except the SW 5906: I think I "need" the narrower wood grips.
Oh well, that's my last great hope with the 5906 before I must deal with the sights.

 

[700 LTR 223]

The reality of that can't be denied by me any longer, though I've tried to be in denial.
I've tried buying that "next" gun that would minimize the "me" factor, but any of these guns are great, which others have pointed out in the past when I had other guns.
I know I will not be doing better groups with a "better" gun.

Exactly , or to put it another way - there is no such thing as a magic gun that will suddenly have you shooting one hole groups.

I am kind of in a 9mm dilemma myself , now having 4 after just picking up a Glock 48 this week. It joins a couple of SIGs P239 , P226 and a Smith Shield. I might have to try my own shoot out to see which I might be willing to part with.

 

[doddg]

Exactly , or to put it another way - there is no such thing as a magic gun that will suddenly have you shooting one hole groups.

I am kind of in a 9mm dilemma myself , now having 4 after just picking up a Glock 48 this week. It joins a couple of SIGs P239 , P226 and a Smith Shield. I might have to try my own shoot out to see which I might be willing to part with.

When I started out 2 yrs. ago, and buying $200ish guns, I did get better results when I started spending $500ish for a gun, but after that it was to the point I had to spend double that just to get a very little improvement, but I see that it is normal for guys like myself that are just average shooters.
When I hear guys talking on the Rimfire thread about using a certain ammo will give them 1/2 inch groups at 100 yds. and another brand will give them 3/8 inch groups at 100 yds I am totally amazed.
I would be thrilled to have 1 inch groups at 25 yds.

 

[doddg]

All my small 9mms at only 20'.
Top 2 targets on a rest, with the middle and bottom targets being free hand.
I haven't been to the range in a month, and it shows.
I need to trim 1 (can do) or 2 (can do but not want to) or 3 (can do if forced to) or 4 (impossible difficulty, probably not do for a long time) of these but choices are tough.
I just bought the Kahr K9094 since I've never had a Kahr before, and this one is all metal (a plus with me).
I'd like to keep at least 2 of these for pocket or ankle CC.
All of these had a safety, which I want for pocket carry, except for the Kahr, which is DAO (acceptable safety alternative for me), but the trigger was sooo sweet and smooth.
I used the same ammo: Fiocchi 115 grain, FMJ, 1200 FPS

I love this Shield 2.0. Loved my 1.0 and this 2.0 does not disappoint in promised accuracy.
It has a 7 & 8 round magazines.
Same size as the small Ruger EC9s.

This Ruger SR9c has a 10 or 17 round magazine: option for larger capacity for such a smaller gun.
Bought this with a few upgrades from one of my favorite members, so it has some sentimental value.
It is only a little bigger than my smallest 9mm, the Ruger EC9s, if using the 10 round mag in the SR9c (barely less than an inch longer, and only a hair taller).
Might have to keep this one instead of the Ruger EC9s, but I might regret not having that inch less with pants with smaller pockets.

This Ruger EC9s is the smallest and least expensive of all my small 9mms.
It has a 7 & 9 round magazine.

Just bought this K9094 since I've never had a Kahr.
It is a two 7 & an 8 round magazine and is all metal.
It's about the same size as the Ruger EC9s.
It could be the first to be trimmed.
It did not impress me anymore than the others, but did have a sweet smooth DAO pull, which I like for a pocket gun.

This Bersa is a long-time favorite as a Glock 26 & CZ Rami size gun.
It is more meaty and all metal and my only small 9mm with a hammer: everything I like in a gun.
A little bigger than the others, but not by much but a fuller grip.
It has 13 round mags.

 

[700 LTR 223]

I need to trim 1 (can do) or 2 (can do but not want to) or 3 (can do if forced to) or 4 (impossible difficulty, probably not do for a long time) of these but choices are tough.

I am kind of trying to decide which 9mms to let go as well. I was going to sell or trade my Shield 1.0 but after adding Talon granulate adhesive grips it feels just as secure in the hand as the 2.0 now. I am fairly certain that I will be letting my SIG P226 go. I thought I could use it as a longer range target pistol but I cannot shoot it nearly as well as my revolvers or 1911 at longer distances. The unSIG-like mushy trigger sure does not help. My Glock 48 is the most recent acquisition and there is a lot I like about it. Then my original 9mm - a SIG P239 , might try that one at longer distance as the trigger on it is very nice.

Still need to rent a P365 and see if I "need" to buy one.