It was unclear from the article whether or not the victim had cut off the enraged driver, and the way I read the article, it implied that if he did cut the attacker off, it wasn't intentional. I've seen plenty of dumb moves in traffic that probably weren't intentional, and I've probably been guilty of a few myself. Bottom line is that we don't know. We do know that an angry driver walked up to a car, busted out the window, and threatened the occupants. To me, the victim would be reasonable to fear severe injury or death. Driving away, if possible, is preferable. However, the original story that I read did not say whether or not that was an option.
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Road rage in Shelbyville - what if?
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In this particular situation, it's a NO SHOOT, IMO.
The reason? Watch the news video that accompanies the story. The drivers' side window is smashed, a star pattern impact, but not "smashed out", it's safety glass, so the perpetrator did not have access to the occupants and was "only" doing property damage with his bare hands. He breaks through the window and starts coming through it, or opens the door, or produces a weapon, the situation immediately changes and I take him at his word that he intends to kill me/us and now has the means to do so.
The reason? Watch the news video that accompanies the story. The drivers' side window is smashed, a star pattern impact, but not "smashed out", it's safety glass, so the perpetrator did not have access to the occupants and was "only" doing property damage with his bare hands. He breaks through the window and starts coming through it, or opens the door, or produces a weapon, the situation immediately changes and I take him at his word that he intends to kill me/us and now has the means to do so.
By the time you wait to see a weapon, it can be too late. A well-placed fist can maim or kill, especially when there's a difference in age / physical ability. Everybody in that mess was very lucky.
"Try to keep in mind. Some of us are...
-out of shape
-old
-not trained
-disabled
-just ****ing tired
...and not willing to put up with *******s anymore."
Also, stop and think, The Victim , might be a Large man 6' 3" 250 lbs is very healthy now, but has a large scar on the left side of his neck. He had cancer, that man cannot take any blow to the neck. Even from a 10 year old little boy. (That man will . )
-out of shape
-old
-not trained
-disabled
-just ****ing tired
...and not willing to put up with *******s anymore."
Also, stop and think, The Victim , might be a Large man 6' 3" 250 lbs is very healthy now, but has a large scar on the left side of his neck. He had cancer, that man cannot take any blow to the neck. Even from a 10 year old little boy. (That man will . )
So, Indiana's Castle Doctrine law is pretty clear:
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person;
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
A 26 year old man gets out of his vehicle at a red light, immediately starts screaming obscenities. "You need to F-ing die" "All you Shelbyville people need to die"
He approaches your stopped vehicle and proceeds to punch your driver's side window hard enough to break it. And some of you would still choose to not employ your weapon??
Alright then. Another statistic in waiting.
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person;
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
A 26 year old man gets out of his vehicle at a red light, immediately starts screaming obscenities. "You need to F-ing die" "All you Shelbyville people need to die"
He approaches your stopped vehicle and proceeds to punch your driver's side window hard enough to break it. And some of you would still choose to not employ your weapon??
Alright then. Another statistic in waiting.
You are a little late with telling me about "by the time I see a weapon". I am a police officer and have have enough sense not to put myself into these messes. There is not enough info listed to consider deadly force. If I had a dime for everyone who told me they were going kill, hurt or beat my head in, I would be rich ... also they wouldn't have to put up bond for intimadation. I also wouldn't put myself into a position that I am cutting off cars while I am driving.
"Most officers get into fights several times a week. They get hit, clubbed, kicked and a lot more"
Irahm, if you are a police officer and you let yourself get CLUBBED and don't discharge your weapon, sounds like you may have been hit in the head one too many times, already. Sorry fella.
By the time you see a weapon......you've been clubbed.
Irahm, if you are a police officer and you let yourself get CLUBBED and don't discharge your weapon, sounds like you may have been hit in the head one too many times, already. Sorry fella.
By the time you see a weapon......you've been clubbed.
No it's called situational awareness. I see that you have a combat infantry badge but yet I don't stoop low enough to question any of your tactics you have employed. Yes, I have discharged my weapon in the line of duty (undercover narcotics). Been in a lot of fights and had a dislocated thumb, other injuries and was shot at by unknown people on several occassions. I have even been struck by cars on purpose and also chased by others down our main highway. If you understood, most assaults against policemen and civilians are misdemeanor in variety. Do you really want to shoot a person because of simple battery charges. I think you need to take a class on when to shoot and when not to.
I am sure that "Combat Infantry Badge" is truely something special and I will be the first to say thank you for protecting us. You have rules of engagement the same as I do.
Employ? No. Deployed and at the ready? Yes. Ready to shoot the instant he broached the safety glass? Yurp.
IMO, outside my car, with my window intact, an empty-handed 'roid-and-road-rager is not yet an immediate and imminent threat to me and mine, just to my property/car. Regardless of the fact that the guy "deserved" shooting and it would likely be legal, especially given the age and physical size disparity, I would not have fired, just, quite, yet. There is the legal line, then the line that I feel I can live with myself with, and IMO, it was not yet him versus me and mine.
YMMV.
Edited to add: In my mind, this scenario is very, very closely analogous to someone raging on my doorstep, attempting to kick in my front door. I wouldn't shot through the door, but would be planning an appropriate "reception" should he succeed in kicking in the door.
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I know of a instance where a guy got out of his vehicle and proceeded to come back to the car he had blocked. As he was coming back the driver placed his pistol on dash where it was easily seen. The gentlemans attitude changed and he returned to his vehicle. Be prepared.
Sheepdog,
Yes, in all fairness, I would add that as soon as the guy exited his vehicle, shouting obscenities, my weapon would have been out in plain sight. IF that was not enough to diescalate the situation and he proceeded to punch the window, then further action would have followed.
Yes, in all fairness, I would add that as soon as the guy exited his vehicle, shouting obscenities, my weapon would have been out in plain sight. IF that was not enough to diescalate the situation and he proceeded to punch the window, then further action would have followed.
ScouT6a, I agree... only the most deranged would continue to try to victimize someone who has made clear that they are armed and that the scenario will end "victim-less", one way or another. (i.e. turn-and-leave or successful self-defense, no third option)
I'm going to be awfully reluctant to fire my handgun from within the car, especially with passengers. I think I would be more likely to call 911 and wait for the attacker to smash me a decent muzzle port or two in the very least. If he doesn't get through the window, then probably no reason to fire and risk your hearing. ?
Guess I was saying..it's a no shoot imo..If he's on the other side of the glass, I'm assessing risk to my life as pretty low and risk to my hearing as very high. Now if he gets through, its obviously different.Yeah, risking your hearing versus risking your life is a tough call.
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