Road rage in Shelbyville - what if?

[Timjoebillybob]

Once again after reading all of the charges, not one was a felony charge. Yes he did a lot of screaming and even got locked up for resisting law enforcement. None of which were serious enough to shoot the person.

If someone was attempting to kick someone's front door in, but hadn't quite breached the door wouldn't that be a misdemeanor or two? Trespassing and perhaps vandalism? Would someone seriously attempting to forcibly gain entry to your home be serious enough to shoot? I do know of at least one case within the last couple of years where a retired (iirc) LEO did exactly that. A guy was trying to kick in his door and he shot him through a window. No charges filed. And iirc it was even in Illinois.

Employ? No. Deployed and at the ready? Yes. Ready to shoot the instant he broached the safety glass? Yurp.

Edited to add: In my mind, this scenario is very, very closely analogous to someone raging on my doorstep, attempting to kick in my front door. I wouldn't shot through the door, but would be planning an appropriate "reception" should he succeed in kicking in the door.

The safety director at a job I worked was kinda easy going for the most part, he was willing to overlook safety regs in some instances if he knew the worker and it was required. Except on safety glasses, he made it very clear that if he caught you without them on, you would get one and only one warning. Next time it would be termination and he would do what he could to make sure you were never rehired with the company. His son, well technically step son had lost an eye. His sperm donor busted out a car window while his son was in the car. A piece of the glass went into his eye and blinded him for life.

I'm not sure I'm willing to let someone breach the glass especially if it's next to my daughter, son, wife or myself.

And I would say it is much more than very closely analogous. If you can't get your car out of there for whatever reason, I'd say it's virtually identical.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Timjoebillybob, you make very valid points and I respect your opinion on this. The dangers of flying glass is probably an area where the car/window versus home/door analogy part company. Another is that through the window you can see what is going on and by whom, where a door you cannot.

(IANAL) The Indiana castle doctrine law appears to allow for a legal self defense decision in this case to prevent the other person's unlawful entry into and to terminate the unlawful attack upon the occupied car. The vocalized threats remove any iota of possible doubt about the perp's intents.

So, while I think it would be legal, and would respect other's right to self defense in this situation, I would refrain until the threat became immediate and imminent. I had no other (reasonable) choice is the only way I could live with the burden of taking another human life.

(As a newbie, I have no rep points to give the OP, so this will have to suffice as kudos for bringing up this subject. Thinking it through from the comfort of the recliner is a good thing)

 

[lrahm]

If someone was attempting to kick someone's front door in, but hadn't quite breached the door wouldn't that be a misdemeanor or two? Trespassing and perhaps vandalism? Would someone seriously attempting to forcibly gain entry to your home be serious enough to shoot? I do know of at least one case within the last couple of years where a retired (iirc) LEO did exactly that. A guy was trying to kick in his door and he shot him through a window. No charges filed. And iirc it was even in Illinois.


Two differennt cases with two different outcomes. You cannot conpare apples to oranges. I have been doing this job a lot of years. Every case is different and and has its' own outcome. We can "what if" this to death, it won't change the outcome. Read the article. The guy was arrested by police for intimadation and resisting law enforcement. Don't you think that if there was anything else, the police would have chargeed him with it.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Timjoebillybob, you make very valid points and I respect your opinion on this. The dangers of flying glass is probably an area where the car/window versus home/door analogy part company. Another is that through the window you can see what is going on and by whom, where a door you cannot.

So, while I think it would be legal, and would respect other's right to self defense in this situation, I would refrain until the threat became immediate and imminent. I had no other (reasonable) choice is the only way I could live with the burden of taking another human life.

(As a newbie, I have no rep points to give the OP, so this will have to suffice as kudos for bringing up this subject. Thinking it through from the comfort of the recliner is a good thing)

Flying glass is much less likely to be a hazard in a home, I'll agree. Although depending on the door it may or may not be possible. Also depends on door/window placement. In the case I mentioned above, the retired LEO was watching the guy through a window while he was trying to gain entry. And shot and iirc killed him through the same window.

Two differennt cases with two different outcomes. You cannot conpare apples to oranges. I have been doing this job a lot of years. Every case is different and and has its' own outcome. We can "what if" this to death, it won't change the outcome. Read the article. The guy was arrested by police for intimadation and resisting law enforcement. Don't you think that if there was anything else, the police would have chargeed him with it.

Yes each case is it's own. Although I wouldn't say a car that can't be driven away for whatever reason, blocked in by other vehicle for instance, and a home wouldn't be apple to orange. Closer to fuji to granny smith IMO. And yes if there was more he could have been charged with they most likely would have. But again, if someone was trying to kick in a door on a home and didn't succeed what would the charges be? Felony or misd?

 

[lrahm]

Flying glass is much less likely to be a hazard in a home, I'll agree. Although depending on the door it may or may not be possible. Also depends on door/window placement. In the case I mentioned above, the retired LEO was watching the guy through a window while he was trying to gain entry. And shot and iirc killed him through the same window.



Yes each case is it's own. Although I wouldn't say a car that can't be driven away for whatever reason, blocked in by other vehicle for instance, and a home wouldn't be apple to orange. Closer to fuji to granny smith IMO. And yes if there was more he could have been charged with they most likely would have. But again, if someone was trying to kick in a door on a home and didn't succeed what would the charges be? Felony or misd?

Mr. "what if", once again, fall back on you basic marksmanship classes if you had any. Who is behind the door and what are your targets. Be sure what's behind it. Have you ever heard of that before. Is this a bunch of kids playing or is it a real intruder. BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET (period). Are you wanting to unload or are you truely trying to protect yourself?

In answer to your second question, Mr. What If did not leave enough info. As far as I can see if they didn't make entry and we can't establish a motive why they wanted in, it would be attempted residential entry (felony). Tenn. Vs Garner places restrictions on when to shoot a fleeing felon or not.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

While I would not advocate shooting through the front door when someone is attempting to kick it in, some wordings of castle doctrine laws make it legal. NC law is now similar to Indiana's (IANAL) in allowing deadly force to prevent one who is attempting to gain illegal entry. As opposed to had already gained entry and was inside the home/car/etc.

In the NC case below, the perp was attempting to kick in the front door of the home, the homeowner yelled to stop, that he was armed, and the police had been called. Perp continued to try kicking in the door, answered by two rounds from the homeowner. The update of the news story indicates "After consulting with the District Attorney's Office, police say no charges will be filed against the homeowner."

No charges against Wilson man who killed intruder

(credit to reddit /r/dgu for posting the story link)

 

[Dead Duck]

While I would not advocate shooting through the front door when someone is attempting to kick it in, some wordings of castle doctrine laws make it legal. NC law is now similar to Indiana's (IANAL) in allowing deadly force to prevent one who is attempting to gain illegal entry. As opposed to had already gained entry and was inside the home/car/etc.

In the NC case below, the perp was attempting to kick in the front door of the home, the homeowner yelled to stop, that he was armed, and the police had been called. Perp continued to try kicking in the door, answered by two rounds from the homeowner. The update of the news story indicates "After consulting with the District Attorney's Office, police say no charges will be filed against the homeowner."

No charges against Wilson man who killed intruder

(credit to reddit /r/dgu for posting the story link)

I love the Uncle Joe Defense.
Biden Advises Shooting Shotgun Through Door | US News

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I love the "crazy Uncle" Joe Defense.
Biden Advises Shooting Shotgun Through Door | US News

There, I fixed it for you!