Safety, decocker or nothing

[cedartop]

This is why I tend to recommend revolvers for inexperienced and untrained folks who are likely to remain that way. Simplicity of operation and manual of arms. No malfunction drills, if you can't figure out the only button on the thing you'll never be able to load it, and it doesn't "hide" a cartridge so that if you screw up clearing it your left with a loaded gun.

Not so sure your buddy Mas would agree with you on that.

Joking aside, you might be starting to wear me down with this argument. Most people who carry a gun aren't serious about it. Most gun confrontations are ended without a shot fired. Most "accidents" happen when administratively handling a firearm. Why not a revolver.

 

[Ggreen]

Ahh, first thing is first. A safety is only a safety device when operated by the real safety, which is the user.

There is no real reason one way or the other to say safety or decocker on a range gun. When you start carrying that is when it becomes preference. The da on the omega trigger is long, heavy, smooth and controllable. I see no reason to switch to a safety. If you plan to carry a decocker, always carry it with the hammer down. When you charge the first round in the chamber, use the decocker rather than riding the hammer down and it puts it in a similar position to a half cock. The hammer hovers over the firing pin rather than sitting on it, when you ride the hammer down using the trigger rather than the decocker you are laying the hammer on the firing pin, not that it really matters. The decocker is a little safer because you can't f&*# it up. Hit the decocker and lower the hammer. When you pull the trigger and ride the hammer there is a chance you won't catch the hammer properly and you could fire a round off.

Safety in a da/sa makes no sense to me in the omega, because the da trigger is smooth and controllable while being long and heavy enough to provide an ample safety buffer. The safety imo is only for guys who are used to carrying condition one. Without being familiar with carry and training, condition one has some hazards that must be watched. I've seen some people deactivate the safety on the draw, which may be acceptable, but there is nothing between that light short sa pull and firing a round off before you get it aimed. Condition one carry makes a lot of sense on a sao pistol like a 1911.

It will come down to preference. Neither is inherently safer than the other, it is the user that is the ultimate safety. When it comes to carry, I worry much more about my holster than the safety mechanisms built into the pistol. A well made, pistol specific holster, will protect the trigger from accidental activation. Kydex or leather, nylon can and will fray and could get a strand in an inconvenient place. We talked briefly about holsters and safe carry and you thought of it as a nonfactor, well a holster has everything to do with safe carry and in a carry pistol is as important as the safety devices built in. I'm sure your carry class will cover this deeper.

The come down to it, on the 75b omega. It doesn't matter which safety you run. It truly does not, both have advantages and disadvantages. Being that I owned the pistol you have, I am very familiar with the trigger, and the da is all the safety a person really needs. SA on the omega triggers gets to be extremely light after breaking in, da is very controllable, especially if you spend some time with a snap cap dryfiring da. You can get to a point where you are pretty steady even through the long heavy pull. I'm not partial to condition one carry, because I don't train that way. I shoot a lot of striker fired pistols, and that training lends itself well to da/sa and carrying da. No safety to remember, no slick light short first pull. The DA gives you a second to focus while you are pulling the trigger through the take up. I know some 1911 diehards that are condition one or die, and that is fine. I find most of these guys stick their nose up when you ask if they want to shoot your glock. They eat sleep and breath sao and have a muscle memory when it comes to deactivating safeties.


Now the whole da/sa thing on strikers.. A lot of it is marketing more than anything. In general a striker works only if the slide has been racked, but some (pt111g2) actually have a restrike ability so they are similar to a da/sa although they run a striker. Generally speaking tho, any striker fired pistol should be called out as striker rather than da/sa. it causes senseless confusion to muck things up.

Then there is the lionheart 9mm, this thing is a monster, it is a da/sa hammer pistol that has 3 modes, da/sa/da+ the da and sa are the same as your cz, the da+ requires the user to manually push the hammer down to decock (without pulling the trigger) and then the da trigger pull is nearly as light as the sa, but long like the da.

So are you more confused? lol

 

[Ggreen]

Not so sure your buddy Mas would agree with you on that.

Joking aside, you might be starting to wear me down with this argument. Most people who carry a gun aren't serious about it. Most gun confrontations are ended without a shot fired. Most "accidents" happen when administratively handling a firearm. Why not a revolver.

Because revolvers make new shooters flinch. They all spray powder, they punish you for having poor form on your grip with cylinder blast, and if you have to shoot from an up close position (person in your face and your hands up near your head/neck/body, you are going to get burned. This is why i'm also against ported pistols for carry. I've never found a carry power revolver that was easier to shoot or train with than a similar sized semi automatic. Revolvers tend to have worse sight and generally harder to shoot well. None of this matters to a carrier that doesn't care to train tho.

 

[doddg]

Just out of curiosity, #17 above says you haven’t used the decocker to lower the hammer so are you lowering the hammer by hand to be able to use the double action?

1. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER!
2. That would not be safe to me.
3. In fact, I misspoke since I did it once yesterday, b/c I never even tried using the decocker until then when at the range with the gun pointed toward the target to be safe since the idea of the hammer flying toward the firing in (hopefully, I have the right terminology), seemed to be oxymoronish to me, being how I was used to only a safety and not familiar at all with decockers.
3. When firing my CZ or Ruger with decockers, I never used it b/c I always fired all my rounds at the range that were in the magazine, so I never needed it.
4. I have never left any rounds in a magazine when firing a gun, unless I'm not firing it, but just putting rounds in a mag to "stretch" in out (b/c it won't take all the rounds as advertised).

 

[cedartop]

Because revolvers make new shooters flinch. They all spray powder, they punish you for having poor form on your grip with cylinder blast, and if you have to shoot from an up close position (person in your face and your hands up near your head/neck/body, you are going to get burned. This is why i'm also against ported pistols for carry. I've never found a carry power revolver that was easier to shoot or train with than a similar sized semi automatic. Revolvers tend to have worse sight and generally harder to shoot well. None of this matters to a carrier that doesn't care to train tho.

 

[doddg]

Ahh, first thing is first. A safety is only a safety device when operated by the real safety, which is the user.

There is no real reason one way or the other to say safety or decocker on a range gun. When you start carrying that is when it becomes preference. The da on the omega trigger is long, heavy, smooth and controllable. I see no reason to switch to a safety. If you plan to carry a decocker, always carry it with the hammer down. When you charge the first round in the chamber, use the decocker rather than riding the hammer down and it puts it in a similar position to a half cock. The hammer hovers over the firing pin rather than sitting on it, when you ride the hammer down using the trigger rather than the decocker you are laying the hammer on the firing pin, not that it really matters. The decocker is a little safer because you can't f&*# it up. Hit the decocker and lower the hammer. When you pull the trigger and ride the hammer there is a chance you won't catch the hammer properly and you could fire a round off.

Safety in a da/sa makes no sense to me in the omega, because the da trigger is smooth and controllable while being long and heavy enough to provide an ample safety buffer. The safety imo is only for guys who are used to carrying condition one. Without being familiar with carry and training, condition one has some hazards that must be watched. I've seen some people deactivate the safety on the draw, which may be acceptable, but there is nothing between that light short sa pull and firing a round off before you get it aimed. Condition one carry makes a lot of sense on a sao pistol like a 1911.

It will come down to preference. Neither is inherently safer than the other, it is the user that is the ultimate safety. When it comes to carry, I worry much more about my holster than the safety mechanisms built into the pistol. A well made, pistol specific holster, will protect the trigger from accidental activation. Kydex or leather, nylon can and will fray and could get a strand in an inconvenient place. We talked briefly about holsters and safe carry and you thought of it as a nonfactor, well a holster has everything to do with safe carry and in a carry pistol is as important as the safety devices built in. I'm sure your carry class will cover this deeper.

The come down to it, on the 75b omega. It doesn't matter which safety you run. It truly does not, both have advantages and disadvantages. Being that I owned the pistol you have, I am very familiar with the trigger, and the da is all the safety a person really needs. SA on the omega triggers gets to be extremely light after breaking in, da is very controllable, especially if you spend some time with a snap cap dryfiring da. You can get to a point where you are pretty steady even through the long heavy pull. I'm not partial to condition one carry, because I don't train that way. I shoot a lot of striker fired pistols, and that training lends itself well to da/sa and carrying da. No safety to remember, no slick light short first pull. The DA gives you a second to focus while you are pulling the trigger through the take up. I know some 1911 diehards that are condition one or die, and that is fine. I find most of these guys stick their nose up when you ask if they want to shoot your glock. They eat sleep and breath sao and have a muscle memory when it comes to deactivating safeties.


Now the whole da/sa thing on strikers.. A lot of it is marketing more than anything. In general a striker works only if the slide has been racked, but some (pt111g2) actually have a restrike ability so they are similar to a da/sa although they run a striker. Generally speaking tho, any striker fired pistol should be called out as striker rather than da/sa. it causes senseless confusion to muck things up.

Then there is the lionheart 9mm, this thing is a monster, it is a da/sa hammer pistol that has 3 modes, da/sa/da+ the da and sa are the same as your cz, the da+ requires the user to manually push the hammer down to decock (without pulling the trigger) and then the da trigger pull is nearly as light as the sa, but long like the da.

So are you more confused? lol

1. I appreciate your time: I read every word!
2. I would comment (as you must know) but I was going to the range and got busy here trying to read and give feedback and the time is gone, but my wife has hopes of me still doing the trimming yet today! So, to trim I go.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Because revolvers make new shooters flinch. They all spray powder, they punish you for having poor form on your grip with cylinder blast, and if you have to shoot from an up close position (person in your face and your hands up near your head/neck/body, you are going to get burned. This is why i'm also against ported pistols for carry. I've never found a carry power revolver that was easier to shoot or train with than a similar sized semi automatic. Revolvers tend to have worse sight and generally harder to shoot well. None of this matters to a carrier that doesn't care to train tho.

*insert lolwut meme here*

 

[Ggreen]

*insert lolwut meme here*

I remember being a kid (13 maybe) shooting 357mag through a colt python. I had a bad hold on the pistol that wasn't corrected. It was under trigger guard but forward, the blast between the barrel and the cylinder sent burning powder through my glove and into my finger. Maybe something unique to the pythons, but it was enough for me to know that I wanted nothing to do with them. a poor grip on a semiauto will take some sking but won't leave you picking out peppered powder for 2 weeks. In a self defense situation I want my blast contained and exiting the front of the barrel, not with some of it blowing through the cylinder gap. the blast I experienced was enough to shred the top of the glove on my weak hand pointer finger.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Would you give or recommend a Desert Eagle for someone to shoot with no training, then have them judge pistols based on that?

I've seen much more severe wounds from improper clearing then flame cutting.

 

[Trigger Time]

Members on ingo who are learning or have legit questions no matter how stupid they may seem, are never stupid questions and the members are always well received and welcomed to ask and grow, as long as they are truly willing to take the sound advice of the members that give it that know what they are talking about. We have local (statewide) and national firearms instructors that have already commented in this thread and came to offer advice and instruction or guidance. That's pretty awesome if you ask me. And no I'm not a firearms instructor just to be clear.
The times I've seen where newbies or members seeking advice on a subject they are learning about (we are all always learning) is the ones where they dont take the advice or instruction and keep on doing it the wrong way or never evolving due to lack of putting forth acommitment.
Otherwise no one is going to truly beat someone up over learning. Yeah we are guys who share a hobby so you will get alittle friendly joking maybe but its not anything serious.

 

[doddg]

Members on ingo who are learning or have legit questions no matter how stupid they may seem, are never stupid questions and the members are always well received and welcomed to ask and grow, as long as they are truly willing to take the sound advice of the members that give it that know what they are talking about. We have local (statewide) and national firearms instructors that have already commented in this thread and came to offer advice and instruction or guidance. That's pretty awesome if you ask me. And no I'm not a firearms instructor just to be clear.
The times I've seen where newbies or members seeking advice on a subject they are learning about (we are all always learning) is the ones where they dont take the advice or instruction and keep on doing it the wrong way or never evolving due to lack of putting forth acommitment.
Otherwise no one is going to truly beat someone up over learning. Yeah we are guys who share a hobby so you will get alittle friendly joking maybe but its not anything serious.

1. Well said! I have been here for 14 months, and have appreciated and enjoyed this site immensely.

 

[Bosshoss]

Because revolvers make new shooters flinch. They all spray powder, they punish you for having poor form on your grip with cylinder blast, and if you have to shoot from an up close position (person in your face and your hands up near your head/neck/body, you are going to get burned. This is why i'm also against ported pistols for carry. I've never found a carry power revolver that was easier to shoot or train with than a similar sized semi automatic. Revolvers tend to have worse sight and generally harder to shoot well. None of this matters to a carrier that doesn't care to train tho.

 

[WebSnyper]

Exactly I saw that too. Unless hes meaning learning the reset.
And the other trigger you dont want is a dead trigger in a gun fight or a click and no bang and you will get those for sure by carrying no round in the chamber

If, after the first shot, you only (as one normally would) release the trigger to the reset point, then the second pull will be shorter.

True, and I ride the reset myself, so much so that when I first tried an M&P even with a RAM kit installed, I had to sell it off because coming from Glocks for a couple of decades the reset I was accustomed to was not there. Now that the M&P Compact 2.0 is out and the reset is improved I have all but converted.

Didn't really think of that in terms of what the OP was saying though, so thanks for pointing that out.

Technically any partially cocked striker is DAO and any fully cocked striker is SAO. That said, classifying striker fired guns as DAO or SAO is largely for marketing purposes and doesn't matter in the slightest at the end user level.

Agreed, and I wasn't about to start discussing the whole some strikers are pre-charged while others not as much, etc in this thread as I figured it would just confuse the OP.

 

[WebSnyper]

They eat sleep and breath sao and have a muscle memory when it comes to deactivating safeties.

Well to be fair, the whole muscle memory thing isn't just limited to the SAO guys. Personally, while I can handle just about any handgun in a safe manner when not under pressure, I definitely practice and advocate sticking to a specific platform for carry and training, etc for the very reason of muscle memory under pressure. Carrying a different flavor of the day firearm that is a completely different platform than the day before just isn't conducive to being able to perform with it under pressure for the average person. Not saying no one can do it, but for me it's carrying a gun with the same SOP (in my case striker fired, no external safety) in the same type of holster, in the same position, with the extra mag in the same place, every day.

Then there is the lionheart 9mm, this thing is a monster, it is a da/sa hammer pistol that has 3 modes, da/sa/da+ the da and sa are the same as your cz, the da+ requires the user to manually push the hammer down to decock (without pulling the trigger) and then the da trigger pull is nearly as light as the sa, but long like the da.

Now you are getting obscure, and I had forgotten all about that oddity.

4. I have never left any rounds in a magazine when firing a gun, unless I'm not firing it, but just putting rounds in a mag to "stretch" in out (b/c it won't take all the rounds as advertised).

Once you feel you are safely handling your gun of choice, this is something you should practice/train. You won't always empty a mag, and while it is not something one needs to be fast at (don't be in a hurry when re-holstering), it is something one should be proficient at, IMO.

Members on ingo who are learning or have legit questions no matter how stupid they may seem, are never stupid questions and the members are always well received and welcomed to ask and grow, as long as they are truly willing to take the sound advice of the members that give it that know what they are talking about. We have local (statewide) and national firearms instructors that have already commented in this thread and came to offer advice and instruction or guidance. That's pretty awesome if you ask me. And no I'm not a firearms instructor just to be clear.
The times I've seen where newbies or members seeking advice on a subject they are learning about (we are all always learning) is the ones where they dont take the advice or instruction and keep on doing it the wrong way or never evolving due to lack of putting forth acommitment.
Otherwise no one is going to truly beat someone up over learning. Yeah we are guys who share a hobby so you will get alittle friendly joking maybe but its not anything serious.

Agreed, as long as one is willing to review the information provided and bring it into practice if appropriate, there are not really stupid questions. That is one of the great things about this forum as opposed to others, because you see other folks getting totally roasted on other forums when asking questions.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If, after the first shot, you only (as one normally would) release the trigger to the reset point, then the second pull will be shorter.

If it's what you would "normally do" depends entirely on context. If you're a bull's eye shooter or someone who shoots with no time pressure, sure. Once time pressure and stress enters the equation, riding strictly to the point of reset is a good way to end up with a dead trigger and leads to, as Ernest Langdon puts it, shooting by feel and not by vision. It tends to slow you down on closer targets, which includes the distances nearly all self defense shootings occur in.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Members on ingo who are learning or have legit questions no matter how stupid they may seem, are never stupid questions and the members are always well received and welcomed to ask and grow, as long as they are truly willing to take the sound advice of the members that give it that know what they are talking about. We have local (statewide) and national firearms instructors that have already commented in this thread and came to offer advice and instruction or guidance. That's pretty awesome if you ask me. And no I'm not a firearms instructor just to be clear.
The times I've seen where newbies or members seeking advice on a subject they are learning about (we are all always learning) is the ones where they dont take the advice or instruction and keep on doing it the wrong way or never evolving due to lack of putting forth acommitment.
Otherwise no one is going to truly beat someone up over learning. Yeah we are guys who share a hobby so you will get alittle friendly joking maybe but its not anything serious.

I'm a firm believer in "the only stupid question is the one not asked".

 

[russc2542]

I'm a firm believer in "the only stupid question is the one not asked".

Seems others have answered your original questions already so I'll just throw a wrench in the works:

If you really want to twist your brain around, read about hybrid actions like HK LEM and Sig DAK triggers and the differences. I'll be very general but basically, in both it's a pre-cocked DAO (which isn't really DAO because it's cocked). After a shot the hammer spring is compressed for a light trigger but the hammer's down for a long pull. The difference is DAK allows you to short-stroke the trigger with a short reset but heavier 8lb pull OR release to a second reset for a long but lighter 6.5lb pull (don't ask me how... I get, on paper, why someone asked for it (like the NYC 12lb Glock trigger) but don't know how it works nor do I want anything to do with it) while LEM comes in a few flavors: the basic one holds spring tension but releases the hammer every time for a light, long pull every time. A different version lets you do a short reset with a short light pull (like SA) or release fully for long light DA again. (think DA/SA while shooting (using the short reset), auto-decock when done (not full decock but going back to the long pull)

There are a number of gun's i'd call effectively a 1.5 action... not true single, not true double. Glocks, M&P, Taurus TCP, and others that the trigger does play some part in putting energy into the firing mechanism before releasing it but with no second strike (using only the trigger) capability: you have to at least partially rack the slide to reset the mechanism.

Never feel bad about asking the basics. Couldn't tell you how many kids were in my auto tech program (actual college degree) trying to learn how to rebuild an engine that were befuddled when told to do an oil change.

 

[indiucky]

I've seen much more severe wounds from improper clearing then flame cutting.

I'm surprised I have any skin left on my hands from all of the revolver shooting I do....

 

[Ggreen]

I'm surprised I have any skin left on my hands from all of the revolver shooting I do....

Well if you shoot them often, then one would say you are experienced and somewhat dedicated to learning them. I see a lot of people suggesting revolvers to new shooters, shooters who don't train, and generally inexperienced shooters, and from my experience that seems backwards. It's a lot harder to mess up with a modern striker semi auto. I've watched a guy at a public shooting area in New Mexico, God bless that state, nd a revolver into the ground behind the truck, because he thought all the rounds had been fired. So even tho you can see brass in the cylinder, it does not eliminate nd. If your negligent your negligent. But I don't buy anyway shape or form that revolvers are better for new shooters. THey have as many hazards, and are only as safe as the handler. There are a growing number of nationally recognized instructors who will not allow ported pistols in their carry class, revolvers have nearly the same hazard just at the cylinder/barrel joint rather than the ports at the end of the barrel. Revolvers have always seemed to be a master class firearm. You have to know what your doing to be proficient with reloads, they frequently have terrible sight that are not changeable and require just as much marksmanship training as a semi auto. So why make things more difficult? With the Glock 42/43, shields, etc all being rock solid proven performers, it doesn't make sense to me to recommend a revolver to anyone new to carry or shooting. Everyone can recommend what they want based on their experience, but I'm still trying to find a time when my old glock 43 was less reliable than any revolver, and I can't come up with one. I can't come up with a time that I took a new shooter who wanted to carry out with the g43 that wasn't very quick to catch on and start hitting paper. So what real advantage other than nostalgia does a revolver have over a comparable quality semi auto carry pistol?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Well if you shoot them often, then one would say you are experienced and somewhat dedicated to learning them. I see a lot of people suggesting revolvers to new shooters, shooters who don't train, and generally inexperienced shooters, and from my experience that seems backwards. It's a lot harder to mess up with a modern striker semi auto. I've watched a guy at a public shooting area in New Mexico, God bless that state, nd a revolver into the ground behind the truck, because he thought all the rounds had been fired. So even tho you can see brass in the cylinder, it does not eliminate nd. If your negligent your negligent. But I don't buy anyway shape or form that revolvers are better for new shooters. THey have as many hazards, and are only as safe as the handler. There are a growing number of nationally recognized instructors who will not allow ported pistols in their carry class, revolvers have nearly the same hazard just at the cylinder/barrel joint rather than the ports at the end of the barrel. Revolvers have always seemed to be a master class firearm. You have to know what your doing to be proficient with reloads, they frequently have terrible sight that are not changeable and require just as much marksmanship training as a semi auto. So why make things more difficult? With the Glock 42/43, shields, etc all being rock solid proven performers, it doesn't make sense to me to recommend a revolver to anyone new to carry or shooting. Everyone can recommend what they want based on their experience, but I'm still trying to find a time when my old glock 43 was less reliable than any revolver, and I can't come up with one. I can't come up with a time that I took a new shooter who wanted to carry out with the g43 that wasn't very quick to catch on and start hitting paper. So what real advantage other than nostalgia does a revolver have over a comparable quality semi auto carry pistol?

Yes, you *can* ND a revolver. That's not the same as having NDs at the same rate. My recommendation is backed by actually tracking both NDs and self defense shootings, not guess work and what-ifs. A gun that's harder to shoot yourself with, goes bang after years of neglect, and doesn't allow for reversed clearing steps is ideal for the casual gun owner who will remain untrained and is forced into an 'oh poo' moment. Reloads don't matter. They don't have one anyway, and the fight is over before the gun is dry, win or lose. What instructors allow is irrelevant, they aren't training. Your concerns of flame cutting are completely overblown, a .38 wadcutter won't do much more than make your thumb dirty.

You want to know when your G43 is less reliable? Stick it in your sock drawer or in a nylon holster under the cash drawer for fifteen years, never do any maintenance, then need it real quick.

You want to know why a revolver is safer? About 1/3 of NDs were the result of reversing the clearing steps, an impossibility with a revolver, so there's a 33% reduction in injuries right there.