Saudi officials kill journalist, what's the response going to be?

[Birds Away]

You can hissy all the fit your little heart desires. The King of Saudi Arabia cares not.

 

[Sylvain]

Isn't the King of Saudi Arabia is an absolute ruler? Do we all fully understand what that means? This event happened on sovereign Saudi soil. That's not a technicality, it applies to every embassy everywhere.

Apparently it's not true.
Also the alleged murder happened inside a consulate, not an embassy (not sure if it makes a difference).

[[FONT=&amp]“We have nothing to hide,” the de-facto Saudi leader, known by his initials MBS, said three days later. “The premises are sovereign territory, but we will allow [Turkish authorities] to enter.”
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]On one thing at least, the Crown Prince was mistaken — consulates and embassies are not, in fact, sovereign territory under international law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“He is incorrect,” says Dapo Akande, a professor of public international law at the University of Oxford. “As a matter of international law that’s absolutely clear, the consulate is not within the sovereignty of Saudi Arabia.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Whatever happened to Khashoggi, he says, “is an event that happened within Turkish territory to which Turkish law applies.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Part of the confusion stems from the fact that the 1961 Vienna Convention, which sets out the rules governing consulates and embassies, guarantees the “inviolability” of diplomatic premises.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“That means the host state can’t just go in without the consent of the state whose consulate it is,” says Akande. That’s why Turkish authorities had to wait for Saudi permission to enter. (In the end, they were finally allowed in on Monday, ten days after MBS’s guarantee.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Yet while the principle of inviolability guarantees some measure of protection to consulates, it does not mean that events that take place there are not subject to the host country’s own laws.[/FONT]

Khashoggi Consulate: Why It's Not 'Sovereign Territory' | Time

[FONT=&amp]Contrary to popular belief, most diplomatic missions do not enjoy full [/FONT]extraterritorial status[FONT=&amp] and – in those cases – are not sovereign territory of the represented state.[/FONT][SUP][10][/SUP][FONT=&amp] Rather, the premises of diplomatic missions usually remain under the jurisdiction of the host state while being afforded special privileges (such as immunity from most local laws) by the [/FONT]Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations[FONT=&amp].[/FONT]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_mission

 

[printcraft]

So an open admitting of guilt.

Do you think Michael Jackson was guilty just because he paid off those kids?

Sometimes you pay to make them go away.














OK, BAD example...

 

[BugI02]

Legal doesn't mean that we have to be OK with it or ignore it.

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/273097/american-press-middle-east

On-point article.

You should (re)read the article Hohn posted before you dial that self-righteousness back up to 11. The guy was closer to being a spook than a journalist - think Brennan or Clapper

 

[CampingJosh]

The guy was closer to being a spook than a journalist - think Brennan or Clapper

That's a pretty weak justification for murder.

 

[BugI02]

So we have to rewrite our foreign policy any time an ally's internal politics results in someone being killed. Got it

You realize we'll have to be neutral then in Yemen, no? Unless you think the Iranians and Houthis have no blood on their hands. Pretty much can't engage with anybody in the ME; not Africa , either

Can't have relationships with Russia or China or many of their current or former satellites. Certainly can't talk to the DPRK or Turkey

What about the French? No one has been killed yet, but they've come awfully close. Murderers! :shake fist:

Follow that Absurdum to Reductio and we can just close up shop at the state dept. Besides its pure guilt by association - we didn't kill the disinformation operative - and if murder is the problem I find Planned Parenthood much worthier of my scorn then MbS because we are complicit in that murder factory

 

[CampingJosh]

So we have to rewrite our foreign policy any time an ally's internal politics results in someone being killed. Got it

You realize we'll have to be neutral then in Yemen, no? Unless you think the Iranians and Houthis have no blood on their hands. Pretty much can't engage with anybody in the ME; not Africa , either

Can't have relationships with Russia or China or many of their current or former satellites. Certainly can't talk to the DPRK or Turkey

What about the French? No one has been killed yet, but they've come awfully close. Murderers! :shake fist:

Follow that Absurdum to Reductio and we can just close up shop at the state dept. Besides its pure guilt by association - we didn't kill the disinformation operative - and if murder is the problem I find Planned Parenthood much worthier of my scorn then MbS because we are complicit in that murder factory

You're responding excellently to a claim I never made.

Every bit of information we know should matter. The tidbit of information in this thread is that MbS is a murderer of political dissidents. That shouldn't be ignored, and it shouldn't be treated as OK. That was my statement. I didn't say that all diplomatic ties must be severed. I didn't say that international affairs are all gumdrops and rainbows. I said that it needs to be unacceptable for governments to murder people for political speech. Basically, I said that our first amendment should be the default worldwide. I am confident you agree with that.

"Results in someone being killed" is quite a step down from assassination. This was an assassination.

Saudi Arabia may be one of the "better" countries in the region (and that's arguable), but we must call on our allies to be better than they have been in just the same way that we call on our own government to be better than it has been.

 

[BugI02]

That's a pretty weak justification for murder.

So then, what? What is your prescribed course of action to respond to this outrage?

Show your work. "We ought to do something" won't cut it

 

[churchmouse]

You should (re)read the article Hohn posted before you dial that self-righteousness back up to 11. The guy was closer to being a spook than a journalist - think Brennan or Clapper

I have read this and could really give 2 ****s what they do to each other. No skin off my nads.

 

[Mongo59]

* cringes and checks nads...

 

[KLB]

So an open admitting of guilt.

Not exactly. The king didn't order it, but he apparently at least approved the payments.

They already admitted it happened a while ago. They have 11 people on trial for the murder. Five face the death penalty. In fact, the children could receive a large lump sum payment if they agree to essentially spare the lives of those five.

 

[dudley0]

None of the money given to the children comes close to a blip on his radar. Just a slap in their faces. Better than what dad got, but still a small token to say the least.

 

[Birds Away]

I have read this and could really give 2 ****s what they do to each other. No skin off my nads.

OUCH!

 

[AmmoManAaron]

That's a pretty weak justification for murder.

Everybody wants to play the hot-shot intel asset and "influencer" right up until the birds come home to roost. It was a dangerous game he chose to play.

I said that it needs to be unacceptable for governments to murder people for political speech. Basically, I said that our first amendment should be the default worldwide. I am confident you agree with that.

A person speaking on their own behalf because of the their own beliefs is rather different than someone speaking on behalf of a foreign power/agency/paymaster.

This was an assassination.

Yes, and it was part of the risk he chose to take. Assets are pawns and pawns are expendable on both sides.

 

[BugI02]

Yep. If Hitlary had lured Seth Rich into the Harry S Truman building and dismembered him, maybe we could get a little more outrage about that death. Somehow I doubt it, though

 

[Expat]

Yep. If Hitlary had lured Seth Rich into the Harry S Truman building and dismembered him, maybe we could get a little more outrage about that death. Somehow I doubt it, though

It would be reported as a suicide anyway.
The outraged would be targets for the next in line...

 

[KMaC]

The 5 man hit squad gets the death sentence, the 3 security execs not even prosecuted.
Kashoggi's sons did learn the lesson that critics are not safe anywhere in the world. They released a statement that they were glad to see justice served and denied receiving any money.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/saudi...entences-for-khashoggis-killing-state-tv-says

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The 5 man hit squad gets the death sentence, the 3 security execs not even prosecuted.
Kashoggi's sons did learn the lesson that critics are not safe anywhere in the world. They released a statement that they were glad to see justice served and denied receiving any money.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/saudi...entences-for-khashoggis-killing-state-tv-says

I wonder if the fall guys will even really take the fall. We'll see.

For those wondering why we should care, I'd encourage you to research the run-up to 9/11. Supporting the dictatorship in Saudi was a major keystone that led to us being targeted. Go read Osama Bin Laden's open letter to the US about his motivations. Read "The Looming Tower" or the findings of the 9/11 commission. Or how formerly pro-Western Iran became one of our most serious enemies. When you are the strongman behind a hated dictator, don't be surprised when you get targeted by that dictator's enemies.

What are the good options? Probably none at this point. Only less bad ones.

 

[T.Lex]

What BBI said is accurate based on my reading and experience, too.

I will also say, though, that post-9/11, we've also been an important part of... encouraging (best word I can find at the moment) liberalization of certain policies in Saudi Arabia.

Certainly not defending all of our foreign policy decisions about SA. Just saying that I think there's been improvement, along with diversification of our allies in the region.

 

[Expat]

That would suck. Government tells you to whack a guy, government then punishes you for said whacking.