SCOTUS to decide on entering without warrants

[jeremy]

People will give themselves away. Few people are trained to believe their own lie on the spot. With fair amount of training its very easy to detect deception.

2 things to toss out here...

1. People generally do not know they do not have to answer questions from the Law Enforcers...

2. With even less training it is even easier to beat an interrogator...

 

[RichardR]

With even less training it is even easier to beat an interrogator...

YouTube - Chappelle I plead the Fif

 

[eatsnopaste]

When they kick in the door they will have their guns drawn and your protestations will fall on deaf ears. What we want is irrelevant. Rights are irrelevant.

Yes, but some posters will have killed them all before they got a step inside!

side bar: ever notice the same posters always end with someone getting shot?

 

[03mustgt]

totality of the circumstances......

 

[INGunGuy]

Yes, but some posters will have killed them all before they got a step inside!

side bar: ever notice the same posters always end with someone getting shot?

That's right, because some posters are law abiding citizens that would only have someone kicking in their door to do them or their families harm. I dont have the luxury to "wait and see" who is kicking in my door.

INGunGuy

 

[level.eleven]

That's right, because some posters are law abiding citizens that would only have someone kicking in their door to do them or their families harm. I dont have the luxury to "wait and see" who is kicking in my door.

INGunGuy

Law abiding is irrelevant to the issue at hand. You won't win in your living room. If you survive that, you won't win in court. The best option is to take whatever is being presented, and file some paperwork afterwords. Sometimes they will pay to fix your door.

Of course, you could always vote for politicians that want to end or scale back the war on some drugs.

 

[INGunGuy]

Law abiding is irrelevant to the issue at hand. You won't win in your living room. If you survive that, you won't win in court. The best option is to take whatever is being presented, and file some paperwork afterwords. Sometimes they will pay to fix your door.

Of course, you could always vote for politicians that want to end or scale back the war on some drugs.

Oh so I should just allow anyone to kick in my front door no matter what? I dont think so as I have stated numerous times before you kick in my door, you WILL BE SHOT, PERIOD. I dont care who you are, because YOU are kicking in MY door, you will be dealt with accordingly.

As for not surviving in my living room, whoever is kicking in my door will be the one that is NOT surviving.

INGunGuy

 

[RichardR]

That's right, because some posters are law abiding citizens that would only have someone kicking in their door to do them or their families harm. I dont have the luxury to "wait and see" who is kicking in my door.

INGunGuy

Agreed, as a law-abiding citizen I have ZERO expectations of law enforcement officials ever being capable of lawfully obtaining a warrant to kick my door in.

 

[eatsnopaste]

Oh so I should just allow anyone to kick in my front door no matter what? I dont think so as I have stated numerous times before you kick in my door, you WILL BE SHOT, PERIOD. I dont care who you are, because YOU are kicking in MY door, you will be dealt with accordingly.

As for not surviving in my living room, whoever is kicking in my door will be the one that is NOT surviving.

INGunGuy

so when you shoot them in the vest and they shoot you in the..non wearing vest, in front of your family..YOU WIN! Is it always better to shoot first and look where and at whom you are shooting?

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

This thread is amusing to say the least. Here's the deal.

1. Under the law the police can execute a no knock warrant.
2. Under the castle doctrine you can protect yourself in your own home, including repelling intruders using deadly force if you reasonably believe necessary.
3. Unless and until you have been served a warrant you may reasonably believe anyone entering your home univited is an intruder to be repelled.
4. Once you have been served with a warrant the police are no longer intruders and you may not repel them.
5. You, your family, dogs, cats, hampsters, fish and neighbors will likely all end up dead if you shoot at the police while they are executing a no knock warrant, in which case does it really matter that you shot any of them to begin with?

The bottom line is that unannounced entries are lose-lose situations that are very dangerous for everyone involved. While they are perfectly legal, they are paramilitary assaults. I wish they didn't do them. Unless Osama bin Laden is in the house, why not wait?

 

[level.eleven]

This thread is amusing to say the least. Here's the deal.

1. Under the law the police can execute a no knock warrant.
2. Under the castle doctrine you can protect yourself in your own home, including repelling intruders using deadly force if you reasonably believe necessary.
3. Unless and until you have been served a warrant you may reasonably believe anyone entering your home univited is an intruder to be repelled.
4. Once you have been served with a warrant the police are no longer intruders and you may not repel them.
5. You, your family, dogs, cats, hampsters, fish and neighbors will likely all end up dead if you shoot at the police while they are executing a no knock warrant, in which case does it really matter that you shot any of them to begin with?

The bottom line is that unannounced entries are lose-lose situations that are very dangerous for everyone involved. While they are perfectly legal, they are paramilitary assaults. I wish they didn't do them. Unless Osama bin Laden is in the house, why not wait?

+1. This is what I was getting at. You also aren't going to get 12 INGO'ers on your jury that would be more sympathetic to your cause. You shot cops who were looking for drugs.

We have heard the reasons as to not waiting. Lost evidence, overwhelming force coupled with the element of surprise, and immediate action was needed to avoid flight or before a scheduled transaction. Adrenaline addiction and make work justification are usually left off the list.

Its also important to realize, like SF said, these are military operations occurring approximately 150 times per day across the country. It is much more than a government funded campaign to curb drug use. It is a literal war against citizens. Body armor, ar-15s, mp-5s, armored person carriers, and flash bangs.

 

[INGunGuy]

This thread is amusing to say the least. Here's the deal.

1. Under the law the police can execute a no knock warrant.
2. Under the castle doctrine you can protect yourself in your own home, including repelling intruders using deadly force if you reasonably believe necessary.
3. Unless and until you have been served a warrant you may reasonably believe anyone entering your home univited is an intruder to be repelled.
4. Once you have been served with a warrant the police are no longer intruders and you may not repel them.
5. You, your family, dogs, cats, hampsters, fish and neighbors will likely all end up dead if you shoot at the police while they are executing a no knock warrant, in which case does it really matter that you shot any of them to begin with?

The bottom line is that unannounced entries are lose-lose situations that are very dangerous for everyone involved. While they are perfectly legal, they are paramilitary assaults. I wish they didn't do them. Unless Osama bin Laden is in the house, why not wait?

If you re-read the OP in the thread it was started about the abilities for LEO to kick in someone's door WITH NO WARRANT because they thought they smelled marijuana. If you want to come in fine, GET A DAMN WARRANT. I am sorry, but living in a FREE COUNTRY makes law enforcement very difficult. Remember we are talking about someone who THINKS they smell marijuana breaking into a home to make sure they find it before it is destroyed.

INGunGuy

 

[INGunGuy]

so when you shoot them in the vest and they shoot you in the..non wearing vest, in front of your family..YOU WIN! Is it always better to shoot first and look where and at whom you are shooting?

Again, we are talking about some LEO who thinks they smell marijuana, which of course from my home they would not be smelling marijuana, and breaking in to make sure it isnt destroyed. Oh and someone comes in, I am UNLOADING my 12 gauge head, neck, shoulders, I hope to blow someone into 15 pieces as they break in. So go ahead and lets hope that vest works out for you. AS for being killed in front of my family, at least I know my family will be taken care of for the rest of their lives at the expense of Joe and Jane Taxpayer. Yea I said it, they will be taken care of. If I cant live in my home and be reasonably secure in knowing that the person breaking into my home is a BG and not a LEO breaking in because of bad intel, then it is time for me to check out anyway.

INGunGuy

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

If you re-read the OP in the thread it was started about the abilities for LEO to kick in someone's door WITH NO WARRANT because they thought they smelled marijuana. If you want to come in fine, GET A DAMN WARRANT. I am sorry, but living in a FREE COUNTRY makes law enforcement very difficult. Remember we are talking about someone who THINKS they smell marijuana breaking into a home to make sure they find it before it is destroyed.

INGunGuy

Actually, going back to the OP, the circumstances were:

Smelling the drug, the officers banged loudly on King's apartment door and identified themselves as police. The officers said they heard a noise and feared evidence was being destroyed. They kicked down the door and found King, two friends, some drugs and cash.

So it wasn't a no knock entry. The police announced. We don't know the exact circumstances.

Anyway, my point was police may effect no knock entries. You may defend your property against an intruder. You may not like the end result if it is the police. And that I think no knocks should happen about once every 10 years. But that's just me.

 

[Rocky1927]

Also, someone kicking in your door waving guns and badges may NOT be LEOs but scumbags using this tactic to gain unlawful entry and then rob, rape or pillage once you have surrendered to "law enforcement officials". There was a case of this in Florida twenty years ago or so. "Cops" came to the door, "arrested" everyone and cuffed them, then proceeded to carry off everything of value. A person who knows in his heart that he has done no wrong cannot take the chance with his familys well-being. When ANYONE kicks down your door you must consider it an unprovoked attack and respond accordingly. To surrender is to place everything dear to you at the mercy of one of the following;
a; A criminal assault.(mercy expectation; low)
b; Incompetent law enforcement officers who are incapable of getting the right address and who are already primed to shoot someone. (mercy expectation; it depends upon whether they are likely to admit they were wrong or eliminate any witnesses to their blunder by gunning down "armed and dangerous drug users")
As much as I respect the average peace officer and would hate to injure anyone I simply cannot see where anyone can take such a risk with his or her family.

 

[navarre1095]

I would think that if the cops kicked in your door you are screwed either way. They are not about to go,"Oops, my bad." and go back to Krispy Kreme. You will be charged with something even if you immediately lay on the floor. At least if you surrender with no protest, your family might not get shot.

 

[INGunGuy]

Actually, going back to the OP, the circumstances were:



So it wasn't a no knock entry. The police announced. We don't know the exact circumstances.

Anyway, my point was police may effect no knock entries. You may defend your property against an intruder. You may not like the end result if it is the police. And that I think no knocks should happen about once every 10 years. But that's just me.

You are correct, but the thread diverged into LEO kicking in doors willy-nilly because of some SCOTUS decision over-ruling the 4th Amendment requirement to get a warrant before kicking in someone's door because they thought they may have smelled what was marijuana.

I was making the point that you, me, everyone has the right to defend their property from unlawful intrusions with deadly force if needed. Now, as I have stated many many times my family and I are law abiding citizens who dont smoke dope so there would be NO REASON ON EARTH that LEO would want to kick in my front door, so if someone is kicking in my door, IT HAS TO BE A BAD GUY. These kinds of life and death decisions are made in a split second, I dont have the luxury to go up and ask who is kicking in my door, all I have the opportunity to do is use that split second to make a life and death decision that can have far-reaching consequences.

Lets go ahead and use this particular scenario:

I/my family are sitting home one night playing games/reading/doing whatever, and WITHOUT any notice whatsoever, my front door is kicked in and I instinctively grab my shotgun and dispatch 2 LEO who made entry because they thought they smelled marijuana. Well upon figuring out that these 2 carcasses sitting on my living room floor are real police officers, I call 911 to report what happened. Will I go to jail? Will I be the one in trouble? As soon as the rest of the calvary make it there will I be summarily executed because 2 of their LEO brothers are now laying on my living room floor dead from shotgun blasts?

Hmmm just something to ponder next time you are sitting with your family playing Monopoly or checkers and then all the sudden someone is coming thru the front door.

INGunGuy

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I would think that if the cops kicked in your door you are screwed either way. They are not about to go,"Oops, my bad." and go back to Krispy Kreme. You will be charged with something even if you immediately lay on the floor. At least if you surrender with no protest, your family might not get shot.

I'm not saying nor do I think that surrender is the answer. To me it's a matter of preparation, and preparing against a home invasion, no matter the reason or cause, is a scenerio you can plan for.

The first thing is don't start none won't be none. If you live a lifestyle with a high probability of police interaction don't be suprised when they show up to your door. I'm blessed. I live in an area where the police don't have to send two cars a day. I don't engage in questionable, let alone illegal activity. Don't associate with people who do. I don't drink, so no drinking and driving issues. No dope either. I live a very boring life, but do a lot of fun things.

The flip side is I live in an area that has had a few home invasions and driveup robberies. More than likely thefts are going to be perpetrated by the lawn crews. But home invasions are a possibility. I address them using certain methods, including early detection systems, weapons availability, and an internally safe room.

I guess my point is that you can sit and live in fear of anything. 99.995% of Americans will never be the target of a home invasion. Only 0.0001% of households will be targeted by police. You can avoid most of the stupid stuff by the way you choose to live.

I don't like unannounced entries by police. I think the mantra "if it only saves one life" goes both ways. To me executing or serving a warrant isn't worth the life of a 12 year old little girl or a 68 year old grandfather.

 

[navarre1095]

If they kick in your door for any reason, YOU LOSE. If you shoot at them or draw a weapon YOU DIE. Even if you manage to dispatch the "intruders", you will not ever overcome the wrath of the legal system. Either way you will lose regardless of your rights or innocence. But then again, your demise may bring more attention to fact fact that unwarranted incursions into people's homes are AGAINST THE LAW.