Selective Service... is it constitutional???

[joslar15]

Where else will you get paid to shoot targets that shoot back?

I'm over 50, overweight and hypertensive. I've already done my military duty. If the time ever comes when men of my age and health are required, you can bet your ass I will be among the first, along with many of my age group. As far as I know, Canada still takes pussies!

 

[RockofStrength]

Holy moly, sounds like the 60's. While some may not like it, draft registration is the law of the land and has been ruled constitutional. If our country is in peril and you don't want to serve, many of us old farts who have been there and done that, will cover for you.

I have no problem defending my nation from attack, and I would not have to be conscripted in order to do it. I do have a problem with fighting and dying in some third-world backwater because the current administration has decided to have an undeclared war to topple some random dictator.

 

[goinggreyfast]

So, the choice, ultimately, is between being involuntarily enslaved into the armed forces or being involuntarily placed into prison. You have a sick & twisted view of liberty & freedom. Truly disgusting.

Been called worse. Have a nice day.

 

[Pocketman]

I have no problem defending my nation from attack, and I would not have to be conscripted in order to do it. I do have a problem with fighting and dying in some third-world backwater because the current administration has decided to have an undeclared war to topple some random dictator.

"current administration?" Maybe we need to take a better look at history.

For the record, I feel we didn't need to be in Vietnam (although I volunteered), Iraq or even in Afghanistan. All were plagued with mission creep and cost us a lot of lives and money. I wouldn't have wanted to be at Gettysburg, Belleau Wood or Omaha Beach. That said, we can only have one commander-in-chief at a time and he is ultimately accountable to the people. No, it doesn't work perfectly, but it's what we've got to work with.

 

[RockofStrength]

"current administration?" Maybe we need to take a better look at history.

For the record, I feel we didn't need to be in Vietnam (although I volunteered), Iraq or even in Afghanistan. All were plagued with mission creep and cost us a lot of lives and money. I wouldn't have wanted to be at Gettysburg, Belleau Wood or Omaha Beach. That said, we can only have one commander-in-chief at a time and he is ultimately accountable to the people. No, it doesn't work perfectly, but it's what we've got to work with.

"Current administration" was not intended merely to reflect on our current president, but also any in the future that would at that time be the current administration.

I see a great deal of difference between Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan, Somalia etc and the Civil War or either World War. It was easily demonstrable during the latter three conflicts that there was a credible threat to the United States, a need for soldiers to win the war, and an actual, achievable objective. The former wars were political games with soldiers used as expendable pawns on a board. I could stomach being sent to fight on Iwo Jima or at Manassas. I could not stomach Ia Drang, Afghanistan, or Mogadishu. The issue is not one of cowardice or a lack of patriotism but rather the fact that my conscience balks at the idea of men fighting and dying for the sake of politics.

Again: I would fight to defend this nation from invaders. I will not fight as a means of achieving some political agenda.

 

[joslar15]

"Current administration" was not intended merely to reflect on our current president, but also any in the future that would at that time be the current administration.

I see a great deal of difference between Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan, Somalia etc and the Civil War or either World War. It was easily demonstrable during the latter three conflicts that there was a credible threat to the United States, a need for soldiers to win the war, and an actual, achievable objective. The former wars were political games with soldiers used as expendable pawns on a board. I could stomach being sent to fight on Iwo Jima or at Manassas. I could not stomach Ia Drang, Afghanistan, or Mogadishu. The issue is not one of cowardice or a lack of patriotism but rather the fact that my conscience balks at the idea of men fighting and dying for the sake of politics.

Again: I would fight to defend this nation from invaders. I will not fight as a means of achieving some political agenda.

Life as a citizen is part of a political agenda.

 

[dross]

I find it interesting what people decide all on their own is or isn't Constitutional. I can't see how anyone can be so sure about this. Congress has the power to raise an Army, it doesn't say how it must do so.

I don't agree with the draft, but Supreme Courts going back a very long time have said it's Constitutional. No, that alone doesn't make it so, but it must be taken into account.

As to slavery, what do you pure libertarians think about military discipline? If I sign up voluntarily, I still must follow someone else's orders. I can't just quit whenever I want. In your pure view, should I be able to resign from the military I voluntarily joined if I get an order I don't like, or I'm sent to a war I dont' agree with? Isn't that a form of slavery too, according to your argument?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Canada has had conscription in the past as well (WWI and WWII)

But unless you're a Canadian citizen, they cannot conscript you just because you're within their borders at a time of conscription.

 

[RockofStrength]

Life as a citizen is part of a political agenda.

I believe I said I will not fight as part of a political agenda. All politics are not bad, and peacefully waging "war" against ideologies that would destroy this nation from within is a noble thing. I will do that.

I will not kill others, however, only because the President ordered me to. If the war is unjust, I would go against every principle that makes me a good citizen of this nation if I marched out and fought. The Constitution, ultimately, must be secondary to the Authority set above it, and God has commanded that I should not kill without just cause.

 

[joslar15]

I believe I said I will not fight as part of a political agenda. All politics are not bad, and peacefully waging "war" against ideologies that would destroy this nation from within is a noble thing. I will do that.

I will not kill others, however, only because the President ordered me to. If the war is unjust, I would go against every principle that makes me a good citizen of this nation if I marched out and fought. The Constitution, ultimately, must be secondary to the Authority set above it, and God has commanded that I should not kill without just cause.

As I don't wish to take another "vacation," I have nothing further to add to this aspect of the discussion. May the Lord be with you, go in peace.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

As to slavery, what do you pure libertarians think about military discipline? If I sign up voluntarily, I still must follow someone else's orders. I can't just quit whenever I want. In your pure view, should I be able to resign from the military I voluntarily joined if I get an order I don't like, or I'm sent to a war I dont' agree with? Isn't that a form of slavery too, according to your argument?

I would actually be fine with people being permitted to voluntarily enslave themselves via uncoerced contracts with or w/out time limits. My mortgage is at the low end of this scale. Employment contracts (in other states) are somewhere in the middle. One could argue that child support & alimony are toward the higher end of the slavery scale.

The problem with conscription is just what I've already pointed out; it ultimately boils down to being enslaved, against your will, as either a soldier or as a prisoner. If a war is just & necessary, volunteers will be plentiful.

 

[Expat]

Personally I think there is a lot to be said for a one year mandatory service for everyone like some countries have.

 

[sloughfoot]

War is used to achieve a political agenda. This has always been true. Even in all the so-called righteous wars. To say that you won't fight just to advance a political agenda is to not understand this simple fact.

War is a dirty and nasty business and if you are involved in one, you won't kill because the national leadership says you must. You will do so to protect yourself and more importantly your friends and comrades.

Back to the origial question though, yes the draft is constitutional. It is determined to be constitutional because it is necessary. Harsh reality.

 

[RockofStrength]

War is used to achieve a political agenda. This has always been true. Even in all the so-called righteous wars. To say that won't you fight just to advance a political agenda is to not understand this simple fact.

Indeed. Some are waged only for a political agenda, however. We were trying to eliminate the Axis powers during WWII: this was good both politically and in simple common sense. We were trying to keep the Commies out of South Vietnam without actually conquering North Vietnam during that war: this was an attempt at a great political move, but lacked any sort of common sense.

War is a dirty and nasty business and if you are involved in one, you won't kill because the national leadership says you must. You will do so to protect yourself and more importantly your friends and comrades.

Unless you refuse to fight at all, which a man ought to be able to do if the reasons for which the war is being fought violate his conscience. It is not a matter of being unwilling to fight and letting others defend freedom in his stead, but rather that the war is one of imperialist aggression and violence.

Back to the origial question though, yes the draft is constitutional. It is determined to be constitutional because it is necessary. Harsh reality.

Necessity is not sufficient reason for forced servitude. Necessity is the call of tyrants and dictators, not of a Servant State.

 

[Patternpimp]

I'm not really sure if it's constitutional or even what relevance constitutionality has in your argument. Although, for what its worth I think I know what your getting at. Anyway, selective service is law, you can get lots of info on it with just a quick search on the net. I for one signed up as soon as I became eligible. While i'm not within the age group that selective service is applicable for anymore, i still have my card (almost 20 years later). Why, not sure, I guess I was proud to sign up. Even to this day, if something happened and my number did get called in some kind of draft, I would go. I would be proud to go and fight for whats left of my country. Will you ever get drafted, hopefully not, for several reasons. But, that number I do know is hooked to just about everything that your going to need, now that you are an adult i.e. loans, financial aid, you could even be disqualified for public safety jobs if you ever decided to go that route. Anyway, not sure if that helped you or not.

You got a card? I remember filling one out, but dont remember getting one in return. Dont deny yourself one of those government cush jobs sign up.

 

[mrjarrell]

Personally I think there is a lot to be said for a one year mandatory service for everyone like some countries have.

Sure. Lots of socialist and communist countries do it. We should do just like them. After all, their systems work so well and are worth emulating.

 

[rambone]

Mandatory Service to the State. A totalitarian's wet dream.

All the indoctrination you serfs can handle. Kissing the Fieldmarshall's boots will do you some good, komrades.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtDSwyCPEsQ

 

[goinggreyfast]

Saw that coming in from the parking lot...

 

[rambone]

I find it interesting what people decide all on their own is or isn't Constitutional. I can't see how anyone can be so sure about this. Congress has the power to raise an Army, it doesn't say how it must do so.

The founders believed we had inalienable rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. You don't have liberty when you are forced to serve the government. You can't pursue happiness when years of your life are taken from you.

Also amendment 13 explicitly bans it.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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It is my unwavering belief that the draft is unconstitutional, and seriously anti-liberty.

Freedom can't be protected by enslaving people.

As to slavery, what do you pure libertarians think about military discipline? If I sign up voluntarily, I still must follow someone else's orders. I can't just quit whenever I want. In your pure view, should I be able to resign from the military I voluntarily joined if I get an order I don't like, or I'm sent to a war I dont' agree with? Isn't that a form of slavery too, according to your argument?

I think Paco said it. Contracts you sign up for are voluntary. If someone wants to sign away their rights, its their choice. Breaking a contract is a just cause for punishment.

 

[rambone]

We should make children serve the government too. It will be like summer camp, only better. Fun stuff. We'll send them off to be in the Obama Youth Korps.