Self Defense? Premeditated? Or Just A Whole Lot Of Stupidity On Both Sides

[Route 45]

Seeing as how I’ve yet to see any self-defense, the video doesn’t prove otherwise.

I thought I saw Big Orange swing a bat at Capeless Crusader Sr.
Irrelevant anyway, since my comment was about the utility of the pistol grip shotgun for defense, not the legality of the whole scenario.

Anyhoo,

Keto, No Sugar-No Grain, Paleo, Atkins, South Beach.....for pete’s sake, do something

This is Texas, and these fellas ain't voting for Keto or any other commie Democrat.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Alcohol involved at all?

I'd be shocked if anyone involved was sober.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Headshot with the shotgun?

 

[WebSnyper]

Junior should have stayed quiet, Papaw was doing a good job of being calm and not engaging in insult slinging.

Agreed 100%.

Now, the camera swings away before the shots were fired. Did he try to grab Papaw's gun? Or did he just walk up to him chest puffed out? If Papaw was alone, he's got more of a disparity of force argument but Junior there hurts that a bit. What was he doing when Junior decided he needed to fire as well? Papaw could be justified and Junior not.

It is suspect that she swings the camera away just at that moment. Very much seems like she did not want some action recorded. If we could see what happens in that moment, it would be much clearer IMO.

 

[femurphy77]

Four idiots meet in an alley and one leaves in a bag.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It is suspect that she swings the camera away just at that moment. Very much seems like she did not want some action recorded. If we could see what happens in that moment, it would be much clearer IMO.

I doubt she had the conscious thought to do it, let alone "because this could be evidence" or something. She sees things escalating, the more primitive part of the brain doesn't understand "camera" and doesn't want her view obscured, so subconsciously she clears her limbs from her field of view. You'll see guys under stress peaking over their sights then going back to sight picture because of that conflict as well.

about the utility of the pistol grip shotgun for defense

Given how late Junior was to get his shots in, and likely shooting at a motionless target by that point I'm not sure utility was proven. That said, I wouldn't say "useless". I'd just say "not as good as..."

 

[jagee]

Tragic. Really.

Apparently orange shirt had kids. I feel for them. He should have been the bigger man, thought of them, and walked away.

 

[churchmouse]

Tragic. Really.

Apparently orange shirt had kids. I feel for them. He should have been the bigger man, thought of them, and walked away.

The wife was screaming about the kids being there. Dad should have walked.

Was orange shirt dumping in old guys dumpster.

 

[Wild Deuce]

*

 

[jsharmon7]

Shirtless fatties probably aren’t required to retreat by Texas law. You can tell by orange fatty’s voice he’s completely out of control of his emotions. They threw the mattress back to his yard, just walk away now. The orange fatty was trying to win the monkey dance since his family was watching and it cost him. In this case, I hope shirtless fatties get prison time.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

The whole deal was over trash in an alley. Really? Is it worth dying or going to jail for killing a guy over a dumpster???

That's a common misconception. This kind of thing always has a perceived cause; trash, noise, dog running loose, over-cooked roast beef...

But the actual cause was one bully who intimidates to get his way, and two other guys who were tired of the bully's crap, were (maybe unconsciously) pushing for a final resolution one way or another, and who were not thinking as clearly as they should have been.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there was a long history of threats, intimidation, cops called, and calmer minds prevailing. But sometimes calmer minds find themselves getting pretty ragged after continued bouts of high drama, and poor choices are made.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Shirtless fatties probably aren’t required to retreat by Texas law. You can tell by orange fatty’s voice he’s completely out of control of his emotions. They threw the mattress back to his yard, just walk away now. The orange fatty was trying to win the monkey dance since his family was watching and it cost him. In this case, I hope shirtless fatties get prison time.

Well, they are charged with Murder. Not sure what flavor, Texas' version of manslaughter is also a Murder charge. I forget exactly what they call each type of Murder to differentiate them.

 

[Ruffnek]

That's a common misconception. This kind of thing always has a perceived cause; trash, noise, dog running loose, over-cooked roast beef...

But the actual cause was one bully who intimidates to get his way, and two other guys who were tired of the bully's crap, were (maybe unconsciously) pushing for a final resolution one way or another, and who were not thinking as clearly as they should have been.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there was a long history of threats, intimidation, cops called, and calmer minds prevailing. But sometimes calmer minds find themselves getting pretty ragged after continued bouts of high drama, and poor choices are made.

While I don't think the Capeless Crusaders were necessarily in the right, I can see this being the likely scenario given the rapid escalation and general attitude of Big Orange juxtaposed with the calm demeanor of Capeless Crusader Sr.

 

[jsharmon7]

After watching it again, you can hear a wooden baseball bat hit the ground after being thrown at Fatty Sr. It’s just after the first shots are fired.

 

[Ruffnek]

After watching it again, you can hear a wooden baseball bat hit the ground after being thrown at Fatty Sr. It’s just after the first shots are fired.

Weightist. If these guys had six packs you'd call them heroes.

 

[Herr Vogel]

But the actual cause was one bully who intimidates to get his way, and two other guys who were tired of the bully's crap, were (maybe unconsciously) pushing for a final resolution one way or another, and who were not thinking as clearly as they should have been.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there was a long history of threats, intimidation, cops called, and calmer minds prevailing. But sometimes calmer minds find themselves getting pretty ragged after continued bouts of high drama, and poor choices are made.

There are plenty of people out there who act like a, for want of a four letter word, rooster. Strutting around, trying to pick any fight they think they can get away with to maintain their perceived location in the pecking order, content in the knowledge that most people most of the time would prefer indetrimental capitulation to confrontation. Note how Orange Shirt (Aaron Howard) spends the entire video attempting to goad Shirtless Jr. and Sr. (John & Michael Miller) to violence.

Furthermore, The Deceased's last encounter with law enforcement involved him threatening to kill the mailman for walking on his property; see attached image. Apparently he had a long and storied history of such "outbursts". Could the Millers have avoided this by backing down? Probably. Did they have a legal, or moreover, moral obligation to? That's the question, isn't it?

 

[Ruffnek]

So there's also a history with Big Orange. Color me shocked after seeing his behavior.

 

[Trigger Time]

Not enough info but I heard the dead guy say more than once he was gonna kill both the guys with the guns and he seemed to charge towards them. So if he had any kind of weapon in his hand at all or an accomplice that did, well then I would be inclined to believe him and be in fear of my life. As far as ego, I didnt see too much ego on the part of the old man. He seemed pretty level headed considering the circumstances. Also its NOT illegal to have a gun in your hand. Yeah its escalates things but it's not illegal.
Would it have been better to walk away? Sure, if you can be sure you wouldnt get shot in the back or as you stepped back. But atleast in Indiana you have no duty to retreat especualy if you are in fear of your life. Once it's at this point and guns are out, I dont know if it's the time to just walk away or not. Really just have to be there and read the situation. I do not want to or look to shoot anyone, I hope to God it doesnt happen, but if I am in fear for my life or my families lives I'll die protecting them if I have to.
.
The police treat everyone as if they are armed so it is reasonable for a average citizen who has a guy threatening death on them to assume that person is also armed with a gun and just waiting to pull it.
We cant see what the guy with the shotgun saw when he fired. With the limited amount of info, I would be inclined NOT to convict these two.
I am not a cop or a lawyer. I'm a regular citizen. But I know what being in fear for my life feels like and if I feel in fear of my life, I will stop the threat to my life. That's all I know. If I serve on a jury and I believe that the defendant was in fear of their life In a legal situation then I would vote to acquit them as would be my duty. If I believe they killed out of anger or ego or premeditation, I would vote to convict. You cannot kill people for the fun of it. It is a serious serious thing

 

[Ruffnek]

Not enough info but I heard the dead guy say more than once he was gonna kill both the guys with the guns and he seemed to charge towards them. So if he had any kind of weapon in his hand at all or an accomplice that did, well then I would be inclined to believe him and be in fear of my life. As far as ego, I didnt see too much ego on the part of the old man. He seemed pretty level headed considering the circumstances. Also its NOT illegal to have a gun in your hand. Yeah its escalates things but it's not illegal.
Would it have been better to walk away? Sure, if you can be sure you wouldnt get shot in the back or as you stepped back. But atleast in Indiana you have no duty to retreat especualy if you are in fear of your life. Once it's at this point and guns are out, I dont know if it's the time to just walk away or not. Really just have to be there and read the situation. I do not want to or look to shoot anyone, I hope to God it doesnt happen, but if I am in fear for my life or my families lives I'll die protecting them if I have to.
.
The police treat everyone as if they are armed so it is reasonable for a average citizen who has a guy threatening death on them to assume that person is also armed with a gun and just waiting to pull it.
We cant see what the guy with the shotgun saw when he fired. With the limited amount of info, I would be inclined NOT to convict these two.
I am not a cop or a lawyer. I'm a regular citizen. But I know what being in fear for my life feels like and if I feel in fear of my life, I will stop the threat to my life. That's all I know. If I serve on a jury and I believe that the defendant was in fear of their life In a legal situation then I would vote to acquit them as would be my duty. If I believe they killed out of anger or ego or premeditation, I would vote to convict. You cannot kill people for the fun of it. It is a serious serious thing

Add up the fact that this guy had serious, documented mental issues, which I'd expect neighbors in this close vicinity to be aware of, and the increasingly erratic behavior and you have a recipe for reasonable doubt. It could also explain why Capeless Crusader Sr. felt the need to carry a gun while taking out the trash.

 

[Route 45]

Seeing the new information about Big Orange's mental issues and threats to kill others, I'm not surprised that this is the final outcome.

If this was his regular behavior towards those in his neighborhood, people are probably secretly thanking the shirtless duo.