Self Defense? Premeditated? Or Just A Whole Lot Of Stupidity On Both Sides

[Hohn]

So we have a guy here with a history of violence and on meds and he starts threatening the Shirtless Mafia over a long running dispute?

Chubbies might be legally in the clear depending on what the evidence shows.

But if you shoot before the bat is swung or thrown, that could be a problem for the whole "defense" argument. Then there's the impression left by shirtless chubbies wielding guns. Never know-- if that jury of "peers" is also prone to shiftlessness and obesity, they might be viewed as heroes. If the jury is expecting them to take the trash out in Dockers and a Polo and have guns concealed, then it could be a problem.

Given this is Abilene (I lived there when stationed at there in the USAF), the former is far more likely. The guy's bad acts will be admitted as context as to why the shooters felt threatened, the guy likely had a protective order on him (making him a less than sympathetic victim) and the Shirtless Mafia will end up with only a civil case to contend with-- which they will likely lose.

 

[Route 45]

...and the Shirtless Mafia will end up with only a civil case to contend with-- which they will likely lose.

"I doubt it." - Shirtless Sr.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Admissible evidence of prior bad acts?

You can use all of your knowledge about someone as part of "totality of the circumstances" in use of force decisions. I would figure that if the Shirtless Bois decide to testify, that'll be part of their testimony. If they can get it in without testifying, I don't know.

 

[Fargo]

Which of the elements of self-defense do you guys think the state is going to potentially be able to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

[Thor]

The mistake they all made was being at the scene of a gunfight they didn't need to be at.

I've dealt with Mr. Orange before...not this specific guy but guys just like him. Sometimes there are no good options. Since I'm no longer in a job that requires me to kill people I'll just call the Sheriff. If Mr. I'm already wearing my prison shirt feels the need to go beyond that it's on him.

And this guys wife was there backing him up? Seems like a family full of fail. But really, just call the Sheriff.

 

[Ruffnek]

The mistake they all made was being at the scene of a gunfight they didn't need to be at.

I've dealt with Mr. Orange before...not this specific guy but guys just like him. Sometimes there are no good options. Since I'm no longer in a job that requires me to kill people I'll just call the Sheriff. If Mr. I'm already wearing my prison shirt feels the need to go beyond that it's on him.

And this guys wife was there backing him up? Seems like a family full of fail. But really, just call the Sheriff.

I can't help but feel like Mrs. Legal Eagle should've been smart enough to call the police when the guns first came out. But then again, it'd seem like a bad idea given Big Orange's history with them.

 

[cosermann]

First saw this on Claude Werner's blog where he's commented on it a couple of times:

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2018/09/21/lessons-from-the-duel-at-the-dumpster-part-i/
https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2018/09/22/lessons-from-the-duel-at-the-dumpster-part-ii/

Lots going on here of which we don't know anything yet.

 

[rosejm]

There are plenty of people out there who act like a, for want of a four letter word, rooster. Strutting around, trying to pick any fight they think they can get away with to maintain their perceived location in the pecking order, content in the knowledge that most people most of the time would prefer indetrimental capitulation to confrontation

Cock. The word you're looking for here is cock.

 

[Platycqb]

Reunion of geniuses here...
And too much man boobs for my liking.

 

[Raven47326]

Agreed. Just walk away! Absolutely senseless and give responsible gun owners a bad rap.

It never should have gotten to that.

 

[HoughMade]

Reunion of geniuses here...
And too much man boobs for my liking.

How many would you like?

 

[dudley0]

How many would you like?

I have two and that is too many.

 

[TMD]

If one turns the volume up a little before the wife conveniently pans the recording away from Orange, you can hear him say something to the effect of: "Gimme that baseball bat." After which he starts saying: "Shoot me! Come on! Shoot me!" and is warned by Pops that: "If you come within three feet of me I'm gonna kill you." and Son, for the first time, points the Tac-14 in his direction. Shots soon follow, the bat is either thrown or lost during a swing, subsequent shots end the situation. Regardless the back and forth prior to this, it seems he picked up a weapon and began to attack, which leans very heavily in the self-defence category. That and, even though each side was in a shouting match, the father and son only uttered threats in defence, i.e. "If you do X, I will kill you.". I imagine this would help them legally. Given what I've read about Orange's extensive criminal history, and prior behaviour in threatening USPS, UPS, Abilene PD, etc. if I lived next to him, I'd come out armed and not alone too. Critically, we don't see the beginning of the encounter, so we don't see how it ended up in a shouting standoff, but I can't see these two being convicted of any crime.

 

[HoughMade]

I didn't hear it. When?

[video=youtube;mAbPvpnYt8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAbPvpnYt8o[/video]

And as to the self-defense, if that's there, it will help them, but I would think that whether self-defense is viable or not would hinge greatly on the testimony of the live person not charged with a crime- the wife.

 

[TMD]

Go to 1:55, just after Tac-14 calls him a *-sucker. He actually says: "Gimme that gun." first, then quickly follows it with: "Gimme that baseball bat.".

Facebook photos of the guy, his page was visible to the public for days after the shooting (might still be), have him posing with a J-Frame sized revolver and out shooting a handgun. As buddy in Orange was a convicted felon, convicted domestic abuser, *and* had a protective order out on him from the previous partner, he doubtless didn't legally carry on his own but it sounds like he still had ready access. Funny thing that. Don't the grabbers say those three things together somehow magically keep guns from entering a person's hand ever again?

 

[churchmouse]

The mistake they all made was being at the scene of a gunfight they didn't need to be at.

I've dealt with Mr. Orange before...not this specific guy but guys just like him. Sometimes there are no good options. Since I'm no longer in a job that requires me to kill people I'll just call the Sheriff. If Mr. I'm already wearing my prison shirt feels the need to go beyond that it's on him.

And this guys wife was there backing him up? Seems like a family full of fail. But really, just call the Sheriff.

Yes yes and Wow.

 

[HoughMade]

Go to 1:55, just after Tac-14 calls him a *-sucker. He actually says: "Gimme that gun." first, then quickly follows it with: "Gimme that baseball bat."..

Thanks. I listened with earbuds and I heard it.

 

[Fargo]

I am still curious which of the elements of self-defense anyone thinks can be disproven beyond a reasonable doubt on this one?

Unless fashion sense, portion control, and socioeconomic status are elements which trump the actual law, I’m not really seeing the issue here.

 

[HoughMade]

I am still curious which of the elements of self-defense anyone thinks can be disproven beyond a reasonable doubt on this one?

Unless fashion sense, portion control, and socioeconomic status are elements which trump the actual law, I’m not really seeing the issue here.

Based on the video alone, I don't see exactly what could be disproven, but I anticipate that the wife will testify....and what will she say? As a practical matter, will the defendants have to testify to rebut what she may say?

 

[Karl Fairburne]

Wow! A whole lot of trailer trash in that vid. Who won?