Self Defense? Premeditated? Or Just A Whole Lot Of Stupidity On Both Sides

[Ruffnek]

Seeing the new information about Big Orange's mental issues and threats to kill others, I'm not surprised that this is the final outcome.

If this was his regular behavior towards those in his neighborhood, people are probably secretly thanking the shirtless duo.

Kinda my thoughts.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Add up the fact that this guy had serious, documented mental issues, which I'd expect neighbors in this close vicinity to be aware of, and the increasingly erratic behavior and you have a recipe for reasonable doubt. It could also explain why Capeless Crusader Sr. felt the need to carry a gun while taking out the trash.

Why wouldn't you carry a gun when you take out the trash.

Remember the thread/news story of the old guy who allegedly shot at his neighbor over a lawn mowing dispute. Someone in the immediate aftermath said "who carries a gun when they mow their yard?" 3 of 5 peoples' hands went up...

 

[femurphy77]

Just to play devil's advocate here I would have a difficult time believing that father/son were in fear for their life up till the part where the camera swings away and shots are fired. Jr. was non-chalantly bouncing back and forth, looking around, throwing shotgun over shoulder and it could be said that both were almost daring orange to make a move on them. Based on the short video I'd have more than a reasonable doubt that either was in fear for their lives. Now once the camera swings away there is the sound of a 2x4 or something wooden being dropped on the ground but I never saw orange with any type of weapon in his hand and no weapon appeared to be anywhere near him after he's shot.

Flame on.

 

[Ruffnek]

Why wouldn't you carry a gun when you take out the trash.

Remember the thread/news story of the old guy who allegedly shot at his neighbor over a lawn mowing dispute. Someone in the immediate aftermath said "who carries a gun when they mow their yard?" 3 of 5 peoples' hands went up...

Judging by his outfit, or lack thereof, I'm guessing it was in his hand rather than a holster. Conjecture, I know, but just playing the odds. These guys seemed a bit "fud"-ish which would also lead me to doubt there was a holster involved, possibly a pocket at most. That CONJECTURE would lead me to think that the gun was in his hand for the trip, which is slightly different than how you or I would likely do it, using a holster, belly band, etc. Perhaps "brandishing" would be a better term for what I'm meaning?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Judging by his outfit, or lack thereof, I'm guessing it was in his hand rather than a holster. Conjecture, I know, but just playing the odds. These guys seemed a bit "fud"-ish which would also lead me to doubt there was a holster involved, possibly a pocket at most.

One of the articles said he pulled it from a pocket when dead guy started yellling. Then Jr arrived after the commotion started. But, you know, media account and all.

 

[KMaC]

Seeing the new information about Big Orange's mental issues and threats to kill others, I'm not surprised that this is the final outcome.

If this was his regular behavior towards those in his neighborhood, people are probably secretly thanking the shirtless duo.

I'm guessing that once his family gets over the shock even they won't miss him. I bet his family bore the brunt of his temper tantrums. His aggressive and superior attitude mixed with whatever mental disorder and drugs made him a scary, unpredictable person.

 

[bacon#1]

Ed got dead by a shotgun blast to the head.

 

[Trigger Time]

Not everyone starts screaming and acting out under stress. Some people tense up so much they are almost paralized. So their behavior isnt a factor alone for me. Also we would need to see a forensic analysis of where everyone was when lead flew. Was the dead guy running away or coming at them? A 2x4 or a bat can kill you with one strike. Or if it doesn't kill you but knocks you out and the guy has said several times he was going to kill you AND your son, i think that deadly force is authorized as soon as that mofo makes one step forward with any weapon.
When I watch these I'm looking for reasons to say the shooter is wrong. Because in trying to be objective and not let my 2A sensibilities shaddow my judgement. So far I think they're in the clear.
.
Oh and BBI is spot on about carry. You should be carrying EVERYWHERE.

 

[Nazgul]

As usual, there is much more to the story. So a neighbor has a history of erratic, threatening behavior, I am still not going to confront him in a alley over some garbage.

If anything, might get the police involved to document his actions. Multiple times if necessary.

Seems that going armed to confront him is a premeditated action on your part with . Initiating a confrontation. Not necessarily a defensive action.

Don

 

[jkaetz]

A piece of wood, 2x4, bat, or other, can be seen being deflected by shirtless dad just before the camera moves out of view. It's only a frame or two but it is clear it was thrown at him and he deflected with his right arm.

I also agree with one of the previous posters, ignoring mental issues, a bully pushed too far. Sorting the situation out will be a complete mess.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Dispute between neighbors. The families had known each other for generations but one individual caused some serious conflict. Property lines and trespassing had caused serious disagreements.

One day while under the influence of alcohol one of the individuals attempted to draw a revolver from a coat pocket. The hammer caught and tore the coat, the neighbor grabbed a rifle and shot the other individual, killing him.

The surviving party went to the Sheriff's Office and turned himself in. He was found not guilty at trial, justified as self-defense.

What I described was a self-defense shooting by my great-great grandfather in 1892. In the words of my grandmother, "If Grandpa hadn't have shot him, somebody from his own family would've." Grandma didn't mince words.

Some people are on a path that leads to a violent death. Orange shirt guy was on that path, just like my great-great grandfather's neighbor.

 

[Route 45]

INGO video analysis squad in the house......

Frame by frame:

Shirtless Sr. raises his arm to deflect an incoming object. This is after a few shots have been fired.

Louisville Slugger in the air!

Shirtless Jr. gets in the game.....

Mossberg Shockwave FTW?

Never bring a baseball bat to a gunfight.

Who is this guy?

Camera swings around to Mama Orange's shadow, showing her recording the scene.

Big Orange down.

Ouch.

Party's over.

Can't tell from the video who was the bat chucker, or if Big Orange somehow acquired a bat before shots were fired.

Lots of valuable information missing due to the camera swinging away right before the first shots.

 

[EyeCarry]

Just a thought that passed through my mind. What direction would this thing take if upon the deceased being shot, the woman pulled out a gun and fired back, killing both of the shirtless guys. So three dead and the woman left standing. Legal, justified?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Just a thought that passed through my mind. What direction would this thing take if upon the deceased being shot, the woman pulled out a gun and fired back, killing both of the shirtless guys. So three dead and the woman left standing. Legal, justified?

Given we don't know if the shooting that did occur was legal/justified yet, that'd be pure conjecture. But maybe. Or maybe not.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It looks like maybe dad shot first to defend himself against a bat-wielding orange menace. If so, I suppose it could be argued that he was defending himself.

Once the bat was thrown and assuming orange man was no unarmed, is junior still legally able to defend a third party from deadly or grave injury?

 

[CampingJosh]

Once the bat was thrown and assuming orange man was no unarmed, is junior still legally able to defend a third party from deadly or grave injury?

If Sr. was justified in shooting, that would be because Orange had attacked with a deadly weapon. Throwing the bat isn't the same thing as stopping attacking. Dropping a weapon and throwing a weapon shouldn't be confused.

So if Sr. was justified, then I can't see how Jr. wouldn't also be justified.

But as said above, we don't know that Sr. was justified in shooting Orange. Perhaps Orange was the one who threw the bat in response to being shot. Perhaps another person threw the bat. The video is helpful but far from conclusive.

 

[jsharmon7]

From other media outlet reports, and Big Orange’s Facebook page, he had been diagnosed with an anger management issue of some kind. It seems like he used that diagnosis to pardon his bad behavior and it caught up with him in this situation. Still, a good lesson of what not to do. I would guess the shirtless chaps are regretting their behavior after getting charged.

 

[Ruffnek]

Route 45, I'm guessing that the mysterious fellow in the black shirt was the eldest son, from the Facebook snooping I did on Big Orange he seems to be the right size. Remember in the video, Big Orange tells someone to go get a bat. I'm assuming this is the retriever of said bat. I still think that the swinging of the camera is possibly suspect, but it could be a sympathetic reaction.

From other media outlet reports, and Big Orange’s Facebook page, he had been diagnosed with an anger management issue of some kind. It seems like he used that diagnosis to pardon his bad behavior and it caught up with him in this situation. Still, a good lesson of what not to do. I would guess the shirtless chaps are regretting their behavior after getting charged.

In one of the many stories I read on this incident, his diagnosis was Intermittent Explosive Disorder. I can see clear evidence of that here.

 

[Hohn]

There are plenty of people out there who act like a, for want of a four letter word, rooster. Strutting around, trying to pick any fight they think they can get away with to maintain their perceived location in the pecking order, content in the knowledge that most people most of the time would prefer indetrimental capitulation to confrontation. Note how Orange Shirt (Aaron Howard) spends the entire video attempting to goad Shirtless Jr. and Sr. (John & Michael Miller) to violence.

Furthermore, The Deceased's last encounter with law enforcement involved him threatening to kill the mailman for walking on his property; see attached image. Apparently he had a long and storied history of such "outbursts". Could the Millers have avoided this by backing down? Probably. Did they have a legal, or moreover, moral obligation to? That's the question, isn't it?

View attachment 70368

Admissible evidence of prior bad acts?

 

[Hohn]

Route 45, I'm guessing that the mysterious fellow in the black shirt was the eldest son, from the Facebook snooping I did on Big Orange he seems to be the right size. Remember in the video, Big Orange tells someone to go get a bat. I'm assuming this is the retriever of said bat. I still think that the swinging of the camera is possibly suspect, but it could be a sympathetic reaction.


In one of the many stories I read on this incident, his diagnosis was Intermittent Explosive Disorder. I can see clear evidence of that here.

IEDs need disarming usually.