SIG selected as new service handgun

[gregr]

There are numerous threads on this board discussing the ballistics and stopping power of 9mm vs 45. If you have not read any of them, than perhaps you should and discuss the results and your opinions in those threads rather than derailing this thread with a 45 vs 9mm discussion

But you`re derailing the thread with your chastisement of me...

 

[Route 45]

 

[BE Mike]

Thank you for your service and sacrifice.
the mission and tools needed have changed since then though.

I don't know. Isn't the primary weapon still an M-16 or variant (M-4)? I really would like to know the reasoning behind different missions/ different handguns, if you can explain that. Thank you for your service, and not to be argumentative, but I'm not sure we had a mission in Viet Nam, except to rack up body count. Looks pretty much like the same thing is going on today, unfortunately.

 

[Brad69]

So your common issue is an M9

Some aviation units issue the P228 to the helicopter pilots and aircrew the ground crews also carry the P228.
The P228 is more compact and lighter and as you know if a pilots shooting we got problems. It's called the M11

CID/MP,s that wear civilian clothes carry the the P228/M11 for a concealable handgun. You can carry a M9 concealed its not well suited for that role. I have carried It concealed it's an uncomfortable chunk of metal.

The we cover the Specialized/Elite units they get quite a bit of flexibility on equipment. Most of them carry the Glock19 I have seen some of them carry the P226 and the P228. Basically because that's what they want.

There are oddball pistols in the inventory I have seen Glock19/17 used by National Guard units. I would assume due to shortage of M9,s.
I have seen a few "spooks" carrying H&K pistols I have no idea who they were with as you know you don't ask.


BTW Iran uses the P226 don't ask how I know that!

 

[Woobie]

Yeah, I forgot about the HK. My friend loved his. I think they're oversized, but hey, to each his own.

 

[g00n24]

There is a lot of institutional inbreeding on thumb safeties. It won't be going away for a long time, and there are some legitimate reasons for it, actually. But mostly that one is stupidity.

Frankly, I couldn't be happier Glock didn't get the contract. Their **** poor triggers and one-of-a-kind grip angle are just bad designs, errr, umm, perfection. They make a cheap product for budget-conscious customers, and they work. Sig makes nicer stuff for people who aren't as tightly constrained. And I say this as someone who prefers other pistols to Sigs.

I don't get how you think Glocks are for "budget-concscious" folks. I haven't seen a Glock for under $550 new in any gun stores in years. P320's sell around $500, so I guess they are cheap. Sig's QC has been lacking for years, I've never seen Glock tell customers to return their guns for a necessary repair. I'd take a Glock over a Sig any day of the week. I know everyone has a boner over P320's, but when I considered getting one I had 3 to choose from (don't remember the sizes) each one had a considerably different trigger, 2 of which almost felt like something was breaking inside before the striker fell/went forward. If you can't manufacture a modular firearm that centers around the system being a drop in trigger housing that has the same trigger pull between guns, then you're doing something wrong. Not to mention the high bore axis is not as conducive to recoil management as any Glock.

 

[g00n24]

Well every once and a while better stuff comes out, look at Colt they got complacent with the military contracts as did Beretta. Glock has done the exact same thing for the most part, the Glock does not really have any major advantages over a PPQ, VP9 or a P320 at the basic infantry unit level. IMHO the P320 is a better choice as most grunts barley get any hand gun training at all so a pistol with a better trigger and a more "natural" point is better anyways. This is for the general Army not Delta or the SEALS they can still pretty much carry whatever they want

The VP9 has basically been proven to be a big turd, go watch the Military Arms Channel tests, they fail miserably in rather mild conditions. The PPQ and 320 have not been proven YET, so time will tell. The better triggers of the 320 could help inexperienced shooters some, but poor trigger control is poor trigger control.

 

[in625shooter]

BTW Iran uses the P226 don't ask how I know that!

Wikipedia?? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P226

LOL Sorry couldn't resist.

As far as the National Guard and Glocks if standard troops they were personal Glocks. We had a couple got in some hot water for trying to use their own Glocks and I was a CATM instructor for a while. They have around 600,00 M9's in the system, some are deactivated (we had to destroy a few that became unserviceable from damage) so with that many M9s I sought there was a shortage. We were swimming in them.

 

[Woobie]

I don't get how you think Glocks are for "budget-concscious" folks. I haven't seen a Glock for under $550 new in any gun stores in years. P320's sell around $500, so I guess they are cheap. Sig's QC has been lacking for years, I've never seen Glock tell customers to return their guns for a necessary repair. I'd take a Glock over a Sig any day of the week. I know everyone has a boner over P320's, but when I considered getting one I had 3 to choose from (don't remember the sizes) each one had a considerably different trigger, 2 of which almost felt like something was breaking inside before the striker fell/went forward. If you can't manufacture a modular firearm that centers around the system being a drop in trigger housing that has the same trigger pull between guns, then you're doing something wrong. Not to mention the high bore axis is not as conducive to recoil management as any Glock.

You're paying retail. PD's do not. Glock sells pistols to agencies for a song, then overcharges the consumer who wants what the cops carry.

Hey, I'm not saying the p320 is perfect, but if 1/3 has a bad trigger, that's still 2/3 better than Glock.

And don't get me started on that bore axis crap. Have you ever measured your split times with the two pistols, or are you parroting internet wisdom? Robbie Leatham can tell the difference. The average cop or soldier can not.

 

[Woobie]

The VP9 has basically been proven to be a big turd, go watch the Military Arms Channel tests, they fail miserably in rather mild conditions. The PPQ and 320 have not been proven YET, so time will tell. The better triggers of the 320 could help inexperienced shooters some, but poor trigger control is poor trigger control.

Hmm, if we're quoting MAC's tests, then how can you say then PPQ and P320 are unproven? Don't cherry pick your own source.

 

[M67]

You're paying retail. PD's do not. Glock sells pistols to agencies for a song, then overcharges the consumer who wants what the cops carry.

Hey, I'm not saying the p320 is perfect, but if 1/3 has a bad trigger, that's still 2/3 better than Glock.

And don't get me started on that bore axis crap. Have you ever measured your split times with the two pistols, or are you parroting internet wisdom? Robbie Leatham can tell the difference. The average cop or soldier can not.

Selling to LEO, government, etc. the manufacturer/dealer can cut the 10-11% excise tax. They're sold excise tax free

It's not overcharging the consumer, it's that there's a tax involved and then selling for the purpose of resale

 

[Woobie]

Selling to LEO, government, etc. the manufacturer/dealer can cut the 11% excise tax. They're sold excise tax free

It's not overcharging the consumer, it's that there's a tax involved and then selling for the purpose of resale

Umm, they're not just cutting the excise tax. They sell for pretty significant discounts. Glock isn't the only one, but that has been their bread and butter. And I'm not even saying it's wrong. Overcharging was a poor word choice. They sell their pistols for what the market will bear, and the market bears a high price to value ratio because Glock. And good for them for their success.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Umm, they're not just cutting the excise tax. They sell for pretty significant discounts. Glock isn't the only one, but that has been their bread and butter. And I'm not even saying it's wrong. Overcharging was a poor word choice. They sell their pistols for what the market will bear, and the market bears a high price to value ratio because Glock. And good for them for their success.

This. Manufacturers want their guns in cop's holsters. Manufacturers offer some pretty significant incentives in terms of pricing, buy back of existing guns, sometimes even replacement duty leather, etc. to get institutional purchases.

I'm also just a touch surprised that people believe a YouTube channel does some sort of reliability testing that's above and beyond anything the military will do. I guess I shouldn't be, though.

 

[g00n24]

You're paying retail. PD's do not. Glock sells pistols to agencies for a song, then overcharges the consumer who wants what the cops carry.

Hey, I'm not saying the p320 is perfect, but if 1/3 has a bad trigger, that's still 2/3 better than Glock.

And don't get me started on that bore axis crap. Have you ever measured your split times with the two pistols, or are you parroting internet wisdom? Robbie Leatham can tell the difference. The average cop or soldier can not.

Ha, measure my splits? Yes, but just about once a week when I am training. With my carry glocks I am at about 0.19 at 7-10yds, a little quicker for A-zone hits closer in but that's about what the triggers limit me to. With my G35 with a Vanek trigger in it I can get 0.16s splits, with a 1911 trigger depending on the gun they are between 0.13-0.15 pretty comfortably. So, yes, I can tell pretty easily how a gun tracks, and I can tell you that a gun with a lower bore axis will shoot flatter.
And I won't argue that a p320 trigger is nicer than any off the shelf glock trigger. But I can tell you from the ones I've handled the triggers were very inconsistent, which tells me QC at Sig is not up to par. Every glock trigger is the same, and there's something to say about consistency in build quality.

 

[g00n24]

Hmm, if we're quoting MAC's tests, then how can you say then PPQ and P320 are unproven? Don't cherry pick your own source.

I'm not going by his tests concerning the PPQ and 320 being unproven. They are unproven simply because they haven't seen the length of service/use that Glocks have. The reference to MACs VP9 tests were only concerning the VP9, which he has proven to be junk.

 

[Dean C.]

Ha, measure my splits? Yes, but just about once a week when I am training. With my carry glocks I am at about 0.19 at 7-10yds, a little quicker for A-zone hits closer in but that's about what the triggers limit me to. With my G35 with a Vanek trigger in it I can get 0.16s splits, with a 1911 trigger depending on the gun they are between 0.13-0.15 pretty comfortably. So, yes, I can tell pretty easily how a gun tracks, and I can tell you that a gun with a lower bore axis will shoot flatter.
And I won't argue that a p320 trigger is nicer than any off the shelf glock trigger. But I can tell you from the ones I've handled the triggers were very inconsistent, which tells me QC at Sig is not up to par. Every glock trigger is the same, and there's something to say about consistency in build quality.

Interesting as I am currently comparing the "bore axis" of my P320, P229 and P320 and they all have darn near the same exact "bore axis". Perceived recoil has ALLOT more to do than "bore axis" I hate how keyboard commandos go on and on about it. Seriously take a physics class or something.

 

[Brad69]

Glocks are cheap if you are qualified to purchase a "blue label" I think I paid like a little over $400 for a 17.

I don't know much about bore axis I do know I was upset when a half trained Afghan shot the refrigerator with his new Glock 17.

 

[g00n24]

Interesting as I am currently comparing the "bore axis" of my P320, P229 and P320 and they all have darn near the same exact "bore axis". Perceived recoil has ALLOT more to do than "bore axis" I hate how keyboard commandos go on and on about it. Seriously take a physics class or something.

It's a pretty simple concept. If the mass of the slide is higher and less inline with a shooters forearm the gun will have more perceived recoiled, or flippiness, assuming the mass of the pistols being compared is the same. Obviously, you have to account for recoil spring tension, slide mass and stuff like that too. I'd have to look up some photos of the other sig models to see how high they can be held, but the 320 does not really allow for a very high hold when compared to a glock. The weight of the metal framed sigs will help reduce the recoil. Most experienced shooters likely won't find too big of a noticeable difference with a 9, as its so light recoiling anyway.
Hopefully none of this is over your head, as I really don't want to have to draw a picture for you.

 

[g00n24]

This. Manufacturers want their guns in cop's holsters. Manufacturers offer some pretty significant incentives in terms of pricing, buy back of existing guns, sometimes even replacement duty leather, etc. to get institutional purchases.

I'm also just a touch surprised that people believe a YouTube channel does some sort of reliability testing that's above and beyond anything the military will do. I guess I shouldn't be, though.

The video was only mentioned in reference to the VP9, which another poster stated as being better than a glock. No one said anything about the army not testing the 320 extensively. The VP9, based on MACs videos, would fail miserably.

 

[Trigger Time]

I don't know. Isn't the primary weapon still an M-16 or variant (M-4)? I really would like to know the reasoning behind different missions/ different handguns, if you can explain that. Thank you for your service, and not to be argumentative, but I'm not sure we had a mission in Viet Nam, except to rack up body count. Looks pretty much like the same thing is going on today, unfortunately.

i will respond in detail tomorrow. Didn't want you thinking I forgot you brother. And thank you. I'm beat tonight.