SIG selected as new service handgun

[oldpink]

It's good to see that the debate about the new Sig is nearly as spirited today as it was with the M9 over thirty years ago.
Considering that the rifle is the real main weapon, it's a sure thing that the debate will be double or treble in intensity should the day come that the M16/M4 platform is abandoned for something else.

 

[Tomahawkman]

With the Seals Adopting the G19 and now the Army the Sig P320, I wonder what direction the Marines will go?

Seems to be a big move towards polymer guns for the military for logical reasons. Should be interesting to watch.

 

[Woobie]

I'm not going by his tests concerning the PPQ and 320 being unproven. They are unproven simply because they haven't seen the length of service/use that Glocks have. The reference to MACs VP9 tests were only concerning the VP9, which he has proven to be junk.

So you disagree with the Army's methodology in stress testing pistols to determine reliability? At some point the 1911 was a proven platform, and the Glock was not. Would you say choosing a Glock at that time was a bad idea?

And if reliability over length of service is the only criteria, we should probably all throw away every pistol we have and get CZ 75's.

 

[Vendetta]

This thread provided me with a solid half hour of laughs at the butthurt and fallacies being spewed forth. Keep on keeping on crybabies.

 

[Doublehelix]

I can definitely say that my VP9 "is not junk", thank you very much. I could care less what the MAC stress test says...

 

[Woobie]

Ha, measure my splits? Yes, but just about once a week when I am training. With my carry glocks I am at about 0.19 at 7-10yds, a little quicker for A-zone hits closer in but that's about what the triggers limit me to. With my G35 with a Vanek trigger in it I can get 0.16s splits, with a 1911 trigger depending on the gun they are between 0.13-0.15 pretty comfortably. So, yes, I can tell pretty easily how a gun tracks, and I can tell you that a gun with a lower bore axis will shoot flatter.
And I won't argue that a p320 trigger is nicer than any off the shelf glock trigger. But I can tell you from the ones I've handled the triggers were very inconsistent, which tells me QC at Sig is not up to par. Every glock trigger is the same, and there's something to say about consistency in build quality.

OK, so how does that translate to the average soldier or cop? What is the difference in their split times? When that machine gunner or lieutenant goes to the range once a year to fire his 40 rounds into the silhouettes over the course of a couple of minutes, what difference will the bore axis make? And when he pulls that thing out in combat, and for the first time shoots it in an environment other than a qualification, will he not kill the bad guy because his muzzle flipped a little too much? Come on, take a step back and look at the big picture with me, that's all I ask.

 

[DNS]

So why was s&w disqualified so quickly? Still can't see why a us owned company can't ever win lately.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ha, measure my splits? Yes, but just about once a week when I am training. With my carry glocks I am at about 0.19 at 7-10yds, a little quicker for A-zone hits closer in but that's about what the triggers limit me to. With my G35 with a Vanek trigger in it I can get 0.16s splits, with a 1911 trigger depending on the gun they are between 0.13-0.15 pretty comfortably. So, yes, I can tell pretty easily how a gun tracks, and I can tell you that a gun with a lower bore axis will shoot flatter.
And I won't argue that a p320 trigger is nicer than any off the shelf glock trigger. But I can tell you from the ones I've handled the triggers were very inconsistent, which tells me QC at Sig is not up to par. Every glock trigger is the same, and there's something to say about consistency in build quality.

.

Isn't the 1911 "high bore axis"?

 

[Woobie]

So why was s&w disqualified so quickly? Still can't see why a us owned company can't ever win lately.

Redacted, because I couldn't find a source quoting the reason.

 

[oldpink]

OK, so how does that translate to the average soldier or cop? What is the difference in their split times? When that machine gunner or lieutenant goes to the range once a year to fire his 40 rounds into the silhouettes over the course of a couple of minutes, what difference will the bore axis make? And when he pulls that thing out in combat, and for the first time shoots it in an environment other than a qualification, will he not kill the bad guy because his muzzle flipped a little too much? Come on, take a step back and look at the big picture with me, that's all I ask.

Are you trying to say that combat situations aren't conducted with a shooting range employee holding a PACT timer and standing behind the soldier and the enemy combatant cooperatively standing still at a known distance?
That doesn't sound very 3133t.

 

[Vendetta]

I can definitely say that my VP9 "is not junk", thank you very much. I could care less what the MAC stress test says...

Right? Lol I agree.

 

[Woobie]

Are you trying to say that combat situations aren't conducted with a shooting range employee holding a PACT timer and standing behind the soldier and the enemy combatant cooperatively standing still at a known distance?
That doesn't sound very 3133t.

Hah! Well said.

By the time you get through "shooter ready" and are starting "standby", you're either dead, returning fire, or behind cover while your buddy covers for you. And whatever you're doing, you're probably cussing the whole time.

 

[crispy]

Man, if the Glock fanboys get this mad now, can you imagine how off the rails they would have been had the M&P won?

 

[g00n24]

So you disagree with the Army's methodology in stress testing pistols to determine reliability? At some point the 1911 was a proven platform, and the Glock was not. Would you say choosing a Glock at that time was a bad idea?

And if reliability over length of service is the only criteria, we should probably all throw away every pistol we have and get CZ 75's.

No. I am simply saying I don't trust sigs as much as glock and to say a sig is "better" I don't feel is true. Tis all.

 

[g00n24]

OK, so how does that translate to the average soldier or cop? What is the difference in their split times? When that machine gunner or lieutenant goes to the range once a year to fire his 40 rounds into the silhouettes over the course of a couple of minutes, what difference will the bore axis make? And when he pulls that thing out in combat, and for the first time shoots it in an environment other than a qualification, will he not kill the bad guy because his muzzle flipped a little too much? Come on, take a step back and look at the big picture with me, that's all I ask.

It very much doubt that it matters at all to anyone of them. But to compare the pistol to others in terms of shootability, it is worth mentioning IMO.

 

[g00n24]

.

Isn't the 1911 "high bore axis"?

Depends what grip safety/beaver tail is on it. But I would say no in general. It's pretty easy to get a high grip with a 1911. The weight also helps them shoot flatter obviously, and I'm particularly speaking of 2011's in .40 and .38 super-comp.

 

[Woobie]

No. I am simply saying I don't trust sigs as much as glock and to say a sig is "better" I don't feel is true. Tis all.

I don't know what the results were of the Army's testing. Perhaps the Glock was not as reliable as the Sig. But we can be sure they both did very well. There is a standard for passing the rigorous tests. The difference in reliability is probably very small. Ditto on service life, if (big if) Glock has figured out their issues with the rails on the back of the slides on the gen 4's.

 

[Woobie]

It very much doubt that it matters at all to anyone of them. But to compare the pistol to others in terms of shootability, it is worth mentioning IMO.

And if we want to talk shootability for the occasional poorly trained shooter, the grip angle and better trigger of the Sig have a much greater impact than bore axis.

 

[bwframe]

Think the new admin will determine that a new sidearm is way down on the list functionally/financially and the M9's still have a few years left on them?

Aren't Sig magazines kind of spendy?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Man, if the Glock fanboys get this mad now, can you imagine how off the rails they would have been had the M&P won?

Which fanboys are getting mad?