So do you really think this is OVER?

[PaulF]

So, if your guy can manage to cling to power, dying to know how you are going to move to hold him accountable and prevent that overreach you are saying both parties are guilty of

'Be the change you want to see', or something

My guy? No such thing.

I spent my vote against a candidate, not for one. I'm stuck with whatever I get.

I hope to have a better choice in 2024.

 

[printcraft]

You ask me to take a "more realistic" view of Trump while simultaneously refusing to budge on your own highly idealized view of him.

That's not how this works...that's not how any of this works.

Highly idealized view?
A political outsider who is at odds with both parties...
to the guy you voted for who has been crawling around as a inside the beltway politician for 47 YEARS in the system you say you despise...
biden is the guy you chose to be your champion here?

 

[Ingomike]

I don't think this is something that Democrats and Republicans can fix, and I honestly don't think they really want to if they could.

I have noticed that you generally do not give any credit for the changes in the Republican Party in the last couple of years. The republicans had a purge of retirements in the last election, even the speaker retired, and a few more in this one. Why? They could not support a Republican Party that would actually do what they said they would. We were promised border security and a stop to illegal immigration forever but the party only used it as a vote getter and fund raiser. I believe now the house will pass it if given the chance. This is a remarkable change from 5 years ago. They can change.

 

[Ingomike]

My guy? No such thing.

I spent my vote against a candidate, not for one. I'm stuck with whatever I get.

I hope to have a better choice in 2024.

A vote for Biden makes him your guy. A vote for Trump makes him your guy. Not voting is the only way not to have a guy...

As much as it goes against popular thinking, not voting is a vote in its own right...

 

[jamil]

I don't disagree with you about the Democrats, and it isn't that I don't see it.

It's that I don't believe the Republicans (national party, not individual voters) value "Inalienable" any more than the Democrats do. No matter what they tell their voters, it isn't in either national party's best interests to allow people to choose their own path. The national parties aren't going to move us toward liberty...not with the allure of absolute power just a few incremental steps out of grasp.

If we want liberty to thrive we have to find a way to neuter the status quo, and that will never happen if we continue to perpetuate the false dichotomy.

Republican's and Democrats have an ideology. The Republican ideology that I think is most dangerous is what I call the "chamber-o-commerce" type Republicans. Establishmentarians who don't seem to recognize when big business can become a threat to democracy. From the Left, though, it's more insidious. This is a poisonous ideology that will rot us from within. I don't see any signs that any high level democrats on the national stage can see or admit that there is a big problem on the left. And even some Lefties on INGO dismiss it as if it's a myth. The riots aren't about George Floyd. BLM the org isn't about black lives mattering. Antifa isn't just an idea. There are a lot more people a lot closer to real power who believe in left wing identitarianism than on the Right. They have no political power to change anything. Maybe voting for Republicans is only delaying the inevitable, but Biden ***damn sure isn't going to stop any of it. Hell, he's oblivious to it.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Republican's and Democrats have an ideology. The Republican ideology that I think is most dangerous is what I call the "chamber-o-commerce" type Republicans. Establishmentarians who don't seem to recognize when big business can become a threat to democracy. From the Left, though, it's more insidious. This is a poisonous ideology that will rot us from within. I don't see any signs that any high level democrats on the national stage can see or admit that there is a big problem on the left. And even some Lefties on INGO dismiss it as if it's a myth. The riots aren't about George Floyd. BLM the org isn't about black lives mattering. Antifa isn't just an idea. There are a lot more people a lot closer to real power who believe in left wing identitarianism than on the Right. They have no political power to change anything. Maybe voting for Republicans is only delaying the inevitable, but Biden ***damn sure isn't going to stop any of it. Hell, he's oblivious to it.

 

[jamil]

You ask me to take a "more realistic" view of Trump while simultaneously refusing to budge on your own highly idealized view of him.

That's not how this works...that's not how any of this works.

Yeah, but is your view not idealized? The word which we shall not utter is likely not going anywhere. I don't see any serious threat to the values you say you hold by anything Trump was planning to do. Except maybe social justice. If you were really hoping to have CRT jammed up yer arse, yeah, Trump was putting the kibosh on that.

 

[PaulF]

In a predominately individualist system you don't get to force someone to bake the cake. The government shouldn't have the power to do that. In a predominately collectivist system, the central government has to be powerful to enforce the collective will. The reality is that ideologues searched for bakers that they could use as examples to publicly shame them, and take it through a court system dominated by progressives. If they can't get the laws they want passed through legislatures, they'll do it through the courts. That's not democracy. It wasn't the internet that drug that issue into politics. It was far Left ideologues.

I would be glad to vote for a predominately individualist system. Voting republican does not produce these results.

We have to stop judging the parties by what they say they are, by what they say they'll do.

If you judge the parties by what they actually do a far more reasonable conclusion is that Republicans and Democrats alike value globalist oligarchy over individual liberty.

We are being slow-walked to autocracy, and both parties are equally complicit...they want this.

 

[sb0]

Republicans are actually in a pretty good position at this point.

Trump accomplished 2 things, shifting the overton window just a bit to the right (which was accomplished before he even took office) and getting us 3 supreme court justices. Everything else will prove to be inconsequential in comparison.
Now we have a senile democrat that no one is particularly excited about who will likely preside over the upcoming economic downturn.
This also gives us a much better shot in the midterms.

The left wanted a wholesale repudiation of Trumpism and they didn't get it, even with the media shilling for them for the last 4 years straight. There's room for someone who is anti-establishment, like Trump, but less of an incoherent idiot, to have a good shot in 2024.

Of course the modern right, having perfected losing into an art form, still has no idea what is actually going on here and could easily manage to screw this all up by nominating a wimp like Jeb because they're scared of being called racist by a bunch of androgynous purple haired communists, or are at least delusional enough to think that that's what cost them this election (it didn't).

 

[BugI02]

It's a really good question, and I want to make it clear I don't have a really good answer...I'm just trying to talk through some of these things to make sense of them for myself.

IDK, not voting for Republicans gives the Democrats cover to do their worst. Not voting for Democrats affords the Republicans the same cover.

I don't think this is something that Democrats and Republicans can fix, and I honestly don't think they really want to if they could.

Well, if the people have to fix it it will be ... messy

 

[PaulF]

Yeah, but is your view not idealized? The word which we shall not utter is likely not going anywhere. I don't see any serious threat to the values you say you hold by anything Trump was planning to do. Except maybe social justice. If you were really hoping to have CRT jammed up yer arse, yeah, Trump was putting the kibosh on that.

Oh, sure...my view of Trump is sensationalized, especially the side of it I present here. I'm not going to offer a considered and nuanced critique of Trump when the next reply will be filled with echo-chamber nonsense, I save that for people who engage sincerely...like you.

Trump has emboldened the SJWs, not disheartened them...I think Biden will do plenty of that when he favors the establishment Democrats (the money) over the ideological democrats (the noise).

Immigration. Rule of Law. Fact-based policy. The surveillance state. The use of police, courts, and prisons. Republicans stand in opposition of my values in these (and countless other) areas. Guns and responsible spending were the only policy points I could credit to the Republicans...and then Trump came along.

There are only so many bricks you can remove from a foundation before support for the building fails. In 2016 I saw two bricks. In 2020 I saw none.

 

[BugI02]

Highly idealized view?
A political outsider who is at odds with both parties...
to the guy you voted for who has been crawling around as a inside the beltway politician for 47 YEARS in the system you say you despise...
biden is the guy you chose to be your champion here?

When you start with the premise that you hate Trump, all the rest of it falls into place. Then all you have to do is make excuses and [STRIKE]whitewash[/STRIKE] rainbowwash the process

 

[PaulF]

Well, if the people have to fix it it will be ... messy

Truth.

 

[NKBJ]

I would be glad to vote for a predominately individualist system. Voting republican does not produce these results.

We have to stop judging the parties by what they say they are, by what they say they'll do.

If you judge the parties by what they actually do a far more reasonable conclusion is that Republicans and Democrats alike value globalist oligarchy over individual liberty.

We are being slow-walked to autocracy, and both parties are equally complicit...they want this.

Spot on.

 

[jamil]

I would be glad to vote for a predominately individualist system. Voting republican does not produce these results.

We have to stop judging the parties by what they say they are, by what they say they'll do.

If you judge the parties by what they actually do a far more reasonable conclusion is that Republicans and Democrats alike value globalist oligarchy over individual liberty.

We are being slow-walked to autocracy, and both parties are equally complicit...they want this.

If we’re talking about chamber-o-commerce type Republicans I’d agree. Neocons, extinct as they are, are a subset thereof.

 

[Ingomike]

Progress! RCP pulled their projection of Biden win in PA...

 

[edwea]

https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/...r-fraud-in-the-2020-us-presidential-election/
Good site with clearly laid out evidence.

 

[jsharmon7]

Progress! RCP pulled their projection of Biden win in PA...

Tom Bevan from RCP stated last night this was false.

 

[Ingomike]

Tom Bevan from RCP stated last night this was false.

So they are saying the never showed them going to Biden?

 

[jsharmon7]

So they are saying the never showed them going to Biden?

That they pulled their projection of Biden winning. Even Tucker Carlson is saying it’s a lost cause. It’s time for Republicans to debrief the situation and build for the future.