Straw Purchase?

[Vigilant]

I thought an illegal straw purchase was where i start slinging plastic straws in california and some commifornian arrests me for killing baby seals and seas turtles

You forgot the warm Manatee dip! BTW, I need a fix man, you gots any of those bendy straws?

 

[HoughMade]

If this is true then what everyone else is saying about being able to get is is wrong????
This scenario is insane!

Read that again. It was not a gift. He bought the gun for his uncle using his uncle’s money.

 

[Vigilant]

If this is true then what everyone else is saying about being able to get is is wrong????
This scenario is insane!

Alvarez, residing in PA, sends $400 check to Abramski for “Glock 19”...
Abramski is not gifting this pistol, his uncle paid for it! THAT is a straw purchase, even though very good at record keeping uncle was legal to own, it was not legal for Abramski to buy for uncle and receive anything in return.

 

[jedi]

Ahhh thanks but still makes no sense.
Uncle cant get the discount and both pasted background checks and went they ffl.

But that is a whole other topic thread. So just ignore.
Someone said it best. Give them a gift card to the gun store or gift them cash, exact amount, so they go buy it themselves.

Keeps you ffffaaarrr away from g-men.

 

[T.Lex]

So the point of the case was to not keep good records when making an illegal purchase.

Got it.

 

[T.Lex]

Ahhh thanks but still makes no sense.
Uncle cant get the discount and both pasted background checks and went they ffl.

But that is a whole other topic thread. So just ignore.
Someone said it best. Give them a gift card to the gun store or gift them cash, exact amount, so they go buy it themselves.

Keeps you ffffaaarrr away from g-men.

One way to look at it is that the money has to change hands in a very specific order.

Person A must use their own funds to make a purchase and get title to a firearm.

Once Person A has title to the firearm, they have certain rights, including the right to sell it again. (Notwithstanding laws about dealing guns as a commercial enterprise.)

If Person A chooses to then sell the firearm to Person B - even at a profit - that is when Person B should pay Person A for it.

If Person B gives the money before Person A's purchase, then Person A is an agent of Person B and it becomes a straw purchase.

This is just general information about legal concepts, not advice to anyone.

 

[Vigilant]

So the point of the case was to not keep good records when making an illegal purchase.

Got it.

Or write in the memo line Tupperware ammunition holding device? Great records are never a good idea in a criminal transaction.

 

[T.Lex]

Great records are never a good idea in a criminal transaction.

Corrected the attribution.

 

[Hkindiana]

OK, here are a couple of scenarios fir you to consider:

#1 Billy Bob gives Clefus money to buy a Ruger for Billy Bob from one of Clefus’s coworkers. Is that a straw purchase since no 4473 was involved?

#2 Jethro’s son, Bartholomew, goes to college in Ohio, so Bartholomew is a resident of BOTH Ohio AND Indiana. Jethro finds a firearm for sale on “arms list” in Ohio and the seller will only do a “face to face” sale with someone who has an Ohio ID. Jethro sends Bartholomew the money to purchase the firearm and says that it (the firearm) is to be part of Bartholomew's inheritance, but the firearm would have to be stored in Jethro’s house in Indiana since Bartholomew’s student housing has a “no firearms allowed” rule. Is that a straw purchase?

 

[Vigilant]

#1 the answer is no it’s not a straw purchase because there is no 4473. Most firearm transfer laws only apply to licensed dealers.

#2

 

[HoughMade]

OK, here are a couple of scenarios fir you to consider:

#1 Billy Bob gives Clefus money to buy a Ruger for Billy Bob from one of Clefus’s coworkers. Is that a straw purchase since no 4473 was involved?

#2 Jethro’s son, Bartholomew, goes to college in Ohio, so Bartholomew is a resident of BOTH Ohio AND Indiana. Jethro finds a firearm for sale on “arms list” in Ohio and the seller will only do a “face to face” sale with someone who has an Ohio ID. Jethro sends Bartholomew the money to purchase the firearm and says that it (the firearm) is to be part of Bartholomew's inheritance, but the firearm would have to be stored in Jethro’s house in Indiana since Bartholomew’s student housing has a “no firearms allowed” rule. Is that a straw purchase?

Forget "straw purchase". Concentrate on not lying on the 4473.

#1 How can you lie on a 4473 when no 4473 is involved? Assuming no disqualifiers...

#2 Lather, rinse, repeat.

A "straw purchase" is illegal when someone lies on a 4473 or knowing transfers a firearm to a person who may not legally own it.

 

[T.Lex]

OK, here are a couple of scenarios fir you to consider:

#1 Billy Bob gives Clefus money to buy a Ruger for Billy Bob from one of Clefus’s coworkers. Is that a straw purchase since no 4473 was involved?

#2 Jethro’s son, Bartholomew, goes to college in Ohio, so Bartholomew is a resident of BOTH Ohio AND Indiana. Jethro finds a firearm for sale on “arms list” in Ohio and the seller will only do a “face to face” sale with someone who has an Ohio ID. Jethro sends Bartholomew the money to purchase the firearm and says that it (the firearm) is to be part of Bartholomew's inheritance, but the firearm would have to be stored in Jethro’s house in Indiana since Bartholomew’s student housing has a “no firearms allowed” rule. Is that a straw purchase?

#1 is a straw purchase. It may not be a federal crime if no 4473 is involved, but it is still a straw purchase.

#2 Jethro is giving money to Bart to purchase a firearm for Jethro. That's a straw purchase. For it to be part of Bart's inheritance, it has to be in Jethro's estate, which requires Jethro to have title to it.

If Jethro gifts part of his estate (cash) to Bart as a down payment on his inheritance (or RMD, if applicable), in an amount sufficient for Bart to go buy the gun for Bart to own it, then that would not (likely) be a straw purchase. Bart would have title to the money and be able to spend it on the firearm and end up with title to the firearm.

ETA:
2 things - if we're only talking about avoiding criminal issues, then yeah, the 4473 is the biggest trap.

There was a tax professor at IU Indy who would use a framework of "I have in my right hand [x] and I have in my left hand [y]." This conversation reminds me of those lectures.

 

[HoughMade]

Apparently questions in the vein will no longer be on the Indiana bar exam because they would cause "cognitive overload".

 

[T.Lex]

Apparently questions in the vein will no longer be on the Indiana bar exam because they would cause "cognitive overload".

Wait, what?

Seriously?

 

[HoughMade]

Wait, what?

Seriously?

Have you not seen the headlines and read the report? We are too tough on the youngsters.

I say, go back to the 20 essay questions like I did...'cause apparently that didn't cause cognitive overload....I mean, it's the test, not the people who are taking it, right?

https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/study-commission-advises-indiana-adopt-uniform-bar-exam

 

[T.Lex]

Geesh. Kids these days.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

One way to look at it is that the money has to change hands in a very specific order.

Person A must use their own funds to make a purchase and get title to a firearm.

Once Person A has title to the firearm, they have certain rights, including the right to sell it again. (Notwithstanding laws about dealing guns as a commercial enterprise.)

If Person A chooses to then sell the firearm to Person B - even at a profit - that is when Person B should pay Person A for it.

If Person B gives the money before Person A's purchase, then Person A is an agent of Person B and it becomes a straw purchase.

This is just general information about legal concepts, not advice to anyone.

You know, you, Kirk and Hough should just make this or something similar your sig lines. Save you having to type it all the time.

 

[DadSmith]

Okay so if a friend of yours who lives in the same state wired you money to buy him a pistol from a none FFL holder in the same state you can take that money buy from a private citizen none FFL holder for your friend and give it to him or her without violating state or federal laws?

 

[dugsagun]

Buy the gun, Shoot the gun(how many times is up to u , heh). Congratulations theirs depreciation, ON your personally owned object. Now clean it and put it back in the box like its brand new. Wrap with appropriate holiday paper and gift away. I may or may not have used the above said idea in the past when it came to wedding gifts to my 3 younger siblings on their respective wedding days.

 

[1775usmarine]

Geez I guess I'm going to jail for buying at the time my 6hr old son a rifle.