the k9 truth

[jeremy]

Oh, yeah, but that's not always a winner, albeit satisfying to say "Situational, Spontaneous Selection" in the courtroom.

It is one that I will be bitter about for the rest of the career. It wasn't right and it happened in front of me.

I would have been highly pissed if I was the person you were representing...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If only you would have taken it up to the Court of Appeals.

 

[rw496]

So, when the dog indicates non-existent drugs, but the cop finds the nuclear bomb in the trunk, there might be an argument to suppress?

Probable cause for the presence of drugs (thanks chompy) allows the officer to search anywhere it is possible to hide drugs..locked, unlocked. I could then testify that I have found drugs there or been trained that that is a place drugs could be, etc. If I happen to find a nuclear bomb in plain view it's just luck. Don't get Kirk started on inventory searches either. That's a whole other thread

 

[jeremy]

If only you would have taken it up to the Court of Appeals.

Brother, if it was me you would be before the Court of Appeals...

 

[IndyDave1776]

Probable cause for the presence of drugs (thanks chompy) allows the officer to search anywhere it is possible to hide drugs..locked, unlocked. I could then testify that I have found drugs there or been trained that that is a place drugs could be, etc. If I happen to find a nuclear bomb in plain view it's just luck. Don't get Kirk started on inventory searches either. That's a whole other thread

So then the encapsulated version is that once you manage to get you foot in the door, then from there it does work much like use of a writ of assistance--anything is fair game both in terms of confiscation and prosecution?

 

[jeremy]

Probable cause for the presence of drugs (thanks chompy) allows the officer to search anywhere it is possible to hide drugs..locked, unlocked. I could then testify that I have found drugs there or been trained that that is a place drugs could be, etc. If I happen to find a nuclear bomb in plain view it's just luck. Don't get Kirk started on inventory searches either. That's a whole other thread

But would you articulate that the Dog hit on the Pills?!

I think that is the part that has Kirk rubbed the wrong way so harshly...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Brother, if it was me you would be before the Court of Appeals...

What crime am I being prosecuted for?

Geez, I go from a modest proposal on doggies to being accused of barranty-in-fief?

 

[jeremy]

What crime am I being prosecuted for?

Geez, I go from a modest proposal on doggies to being accused of barranty-in-fief?

OK how about we would be taking the case before the Court of Appeals?!

Not really sure on the proper way to talk the Civilian Legal System. Most of my experiences are with the UCMJ...

 

[rw496]

So then the encapsulated version is that once you manage to get you foot in the door, then from there it does work much like use of a writ of assistance--anything is fair game both in terms of confiscation and prosecution?

Yep. That's the thing about drugs..they can be anywhere. Therefore, I can search anywhere. If I find something accidentally and its incriminating nature is apparent to me then I can seize it. If it was a cadaver dog and I was in the glovebox..maybe not.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yep. That's the thing about drugs..they can be anywhere. Therefore, I can search anywhere. If I find something accidentally and its incriminating nature is apparent to me then I can seize it. If it was a cadaver dog and I was in the glovebox..maybe not.

OK, I am left with a pretty thorough answer. If the dog indicates, the Fourth Amendment is out the window.

 

[TaunTaun]

Yep. That's the thing about drugs..they can be anywhere. Therefore, I can search anywhere. If I find something accidentally and its incriminating nature is apparent to me then I can seize it. If it was a cadaver dog and I was in the glovebox..maybe not.

So THAT's where I left that severed hand!

 

[jeremy]

Yep. That's the thing about drugs..they can be anywhere. Therefore, I can search anywhere. If I find something accidentally and its incriminating nature is apparent to me then I can seize it. If it was a cadaver dog and I was in the glovebox..maybe not.

I think that is the rub that some of us have with the use of Dogs. At least partially anyway. A well trained Dog and Handler can really narrow a search down to a very localized area, not the whole freaking car...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

OK how about we would be taking the case before the Court of Appeals?!

Not really sure on the proper way to talk the Civilian Legal System. Most of my experiences are with the UCMJ...

Got it.

If only. Man, that whole deal was such a bad type of sandwhich.

I don't mind getting my teeth punched in on a lay down case (confession, busload of nuns who saw your guy do it, the clothes, the weapon, the crime recorded on 911 call, inter alia [yes, I've done those]), you know challenged the state's evidence to keep the government honest, but to lose like that and on a bull**** claim like that just makes me . . . very upset, still. I mean, it was so long ago I had hair.

 

[jeremy]

Next time you are around the K9 Guys finding who they buy the dogs from so I can get that quickly evolving trait in my GSD Lines...

 

[rw496]

I think that is the rub that some of us have with the use of Dogs. At least partially anyway. A well trained Dog and Handler can really narrow a search down to a very localized area, not the whole freaking car...

Well, you have to take into consideration the wind on the highway, the car's fan, the exhaust, the rotation of the earth, migratory pattern of the candian goose, etc., etc. It could be anywhere.

 

[TaunTaun]

Well, you have to take into consideration the wind on the highway, the car's fan, the exhaust, the rotation of the earth, migratory pattern of the candian goose, etc., etc. It could be anywhere.

Don't forget the Sylar effect, so that the dogs pickup the superpowers and abilities of other dogs....

 

[jeremy]

Well, you have to take into consideration the wind on the highway, the car's fan, the exhaust, the rotation of the earth, migratory pattern of the candian goose, etc., etc. It could be anywhere.

LOL!

Judges might buy that BS, but anyone that has handled or trained dogs to track knows better than that...

 

[rw496]

Dogs are amazing creatures, but fallible without question. The degree of latitude the courts give dogs and their sometimes incompetent handlers is way excessive. I have seen dogs hit and there not be anything, dogs not hit and I had already found the compartment that was loaded, and handlers ask me where it's at so they can cue their dogs..it all happens. I am definitely in favor of some type of standard or certification. The only way, IMO, to test a dog's ability is through a scientific approach and like any other scientific method you have to control the variables to get an accurate result.

 

[rw496]

Free legal advice for attorneys: You will never win the same old battle of going after a dog's ability..or the general ability of dogs. Maybe try the lack of any standard of performance, lack of any standard certification. Yeah, the dog was certified when he was purchased, but by the seller based on his criteria; that dog might have done nothing since then. Definitely look into the competence of the officer.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I am definitely in favor of some type of standard or certification.

Some indicia of field reliability is what I have been seeking.

That and a cap on the ability of dogs to evolve.