***The Truckers Thread***

[JettaKnight]

Thanks. My thought was if they did noticeably worse on MPG, that might explain why they would be phased out by companies who wouldn't pay much attention to driver or mechanic criticisms

Don't forget - if you ever need to access the engine, everything in the cab (or sleeper) is headed to the windshield.

 

[Brad69]

Cabovers are actually more aerodynamic than a normal truck strange huh!

Peterbilt 372 COE is the Champion and one of the ugliest trucks ever built.
Just A Car Guy: Peterbilt?s attempt at an aerodynamic cabover, the 372 from 1988-1994

 

[Wstar425]

https://www.ifca.com/media/web/1494274465_80000 lb access fact sheet.pdf

in 2009 Illinois joined the rest of the country per truck weights. Not much else, but it was a start I suppose.

 

[Bigtanker]

Cabovers are actually more aerodynamic than a normal truck strange huh!

Peterbilt 372 COE is the Champion and one of the ugliest trucks ever built.
Just A Car Guy: Peterbilt?s attempt at an aerodynamic cabover, the 372 from 1988-1994

I think Rutherford said those were getting 1.5 to 2 mpg better than the standard/classic cabs. Classic got 4.5, the aero cab could get 6-6.5. That's 50% better mileage. That's a huge number.

Yes there were other factors like speed and trailer setup but regardless, they were getting better mileage.

 

[maxwelhse]

When I was an engineer at Navistar I asked about cab overs (because I was totally new to the trucking world). I was told, "We don't make them because no one will buy them. Which is a shame because they're so much better in many respects."

Not what I heard at all, also while working at Nav, when I asked the same question. I worked with some guys in Powertrain that were there back in the day when they were still designing those trucks. The way I heard it International COEs in particular were desirable because we had some funky cab with windows at the feet so drivers could see right down to the nose of the truck. This was particularly awesome for garbage trucks, apparently. You can see the lineage of those trucks in the movies Real Steel and the original Terminator (maybe also T2). IH did them in mediums and heavies both.

Also... In typical Navistar fashion, when they exited the COE market they also just tossed Mack the 50%+ of the garbage truck business that the company had until that time. They did the same thing when they screwed up the RE bus by dropping the V8 and adding side cooling packages... I really miss trucks, but I really hate that company's decisions. Best and worst job I've ever had as a professional.

This may be true for heavy duty class 8s, but cab overs are still very prevelent in the medium duty world, particularly urban delivery. Isuzu sells a crap ton of them in the US. Traditional cabs can't touch the turn radius.

Absolutely! I wasn't thinking about medium/light duty trucks.

You got most of that right plus some additional intel. After there was supposed to be a nation wide 80,000 weight limit and the length laws as you mentioned, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, maybe Arkansas, Texas?? still maintained the 73,280# weight along with a shorter length. So, everyone with a hood, or too heavy had to run around that Mississippi corridor, or run the scales via backroads. Lots and lots of trucks off the NE would run 80 to Chicago, (no scales) go up to Wisconsin on 90, across Minnesota and then cut back south to LA or wherever they were headed. Sometime in early 80’s I think the Feds threatened to cut off Highway funds if they didn’t get on board. Lots of out of route miles put on while the .gov was also 55 mph nationwide due to fuel shortages and other BS. I think it was hard to believe, at least for me, that this was a real issue if you are making me go 400 miles out of my way due to a state holding up the show.

Trailers went from 40 foot, the first one I pulled, to 42.5 to 45, then 48 and now 53. I think it was the 48 footers when you could have any length tractor as long as you didn’t have a 53, so you would see guys with hoods and 48 footers and 53 footers with cabovers. But you had to stay on the “Designated Highway” which was usually the Interstate and maybe 2 miles from the exit. So, getting to small towns off the beaten trail could still be an issue.

Back in those days the speed limit was 55 nationwide, everyone was trying to do 70, thus team drivers and the CB was a huge deal. Our truck ran 23 hours a day, once we were loaded.

Today the speed limit is 70-85 mph and companies are limiting trucks to 65-68 or maybe less. It’s pretty crazy when you throw in cars often doing 90 or better not being all that unusual.

I started driving semi in 1978 and haven’t really ever done anything else.

Fantastic explanation! Thank you for the extra insight. I just got "the laws changed" story when I asked.

----

Also, FWIW, I don't think you'd have much luck cooling a modern US motor in a COE anymore. We had bad air stacking problems in the doghouse of FE buses and in a tractor that would be at least as bad, if not worse. EPA was more severe than Euro V so I assume that's how our EU friends are able to do it. I'm not sure what the next iteration of doom will be for emissions, but I'm betting that COE heavies are going to go away all together unless something serious happens either with technology or legislation. I'd never want to drive one if I were in that game (from a comfort perspective alone), but they sure do look cool. Plus all sorts of extra mechanisms and gizmos to tinker with.

 

[Principal Skinr]

I think Rutherford said those were getting 1.5 to 2 mpg better than the standard/classic cabs. Classic got 4.5, the aero cab could get 6-6.5. That's 50% better mileage. That's a huge number.

Yes there were other factors like speed and trailer setup but regardless, they were getting better mileage.

What can one of the newest models, equipped with the most efficient engine/transmission combination, expect to get? Can they hit 10mpg? Better? What tractor, engine and transmission is considered to be the fuel economy champ?

I was on a tour recently of Stoops Freightliner last summer when we were beginning a partnership with them for our high school's career center and the new Freightliners and Detroit Diesels/auto transmissions were just fascinating. I'm curious what kind of mileage they can achieve.

 

[Bigtanker]

A property running new engine can easily get 7-7.5 with the right driver and a good aero package on the trailer.

But the guys getting the best mileage are the ones running pre-emission engines, all of the fuel mileage upgrades like tires, direct drive transmission/rear ratio, tuned motor with high HP, aero trailer etc. Pulling 75,000 gross, they are running a 12 month average of almost 10. Quite a few are in the low 9s. If you download the "Fuel Gauges" app to track your MPG, you can follow a few of the hyper-milers.

https://solutions.letstruck.com/c/FuelGauges

 

[Brad69]

Used to love International 9400,9900 simple to work on all the controls for the HVAC were under passenger seat easy to get at. They had a ford style starter solenoid on the firewall overall a good truck rode kinda rough and were noisy.

Then came the Prostar bought a 2008 with the Cummins truck had around 100,000 miles broke down in Nashville,TN sat for two weeks the body computer would not communicate with the engine computer. I eventually went down there and ran a hot wire from the battery to the engine computer. Mechanics could not figure out that would work thought I was a genius.

Traded that thing off won’t even consider a International for anything know a few people that went broke with the Maxxforce engine that would not run for more than a week without major work.

 

[Wstar425]

I get between 5.5 mpg and upper 6 mpg. NEVER see over 7mpg. 2019 Pete 579 with 500 Cummins and 13 speed. As you can see the tanks are exposed, with no skirts. Company had all Volvo’s with fairings and all the latest electronic doodads, but nothing but issues after a few years on them. So, they went to a simpler idea I guess. I had no input but I sure like this Pete a lot better!!

We haul a lot of light 15,000# cardboard loads as our main outbound freight. Also some heavy paper 45,000# outbound. Coming back is either Schaeffer’s oil, chemicals, more paper, or anything fitting in a dry van, with weights all over the place. We can run 70 mph, it would appear that fuel mileage is not their top concern. No skirting on the trailer, there is quite a bit you could do to this rig in the way of improving mileage, I suppose. Of course it all costs money as well as adds some weight. We actually sometimes haul rolls of paper to Chicago, then reload rolls of paper right back to Wisconsin. I have also hauled cheese to Los Angelos, a load of dried whey to Twin Falls, Idaho, then cheese back to Wisconsin, all on the same trip! I did that same trip every other week for a few years, coming thru West Yellowstone on the way back. I’ve been in 48 states with a truck.

We have 28 drivers, there are a few older (61) than me, but I have the most years driving of anyone at 42 years and probably more than the bottom half put together. I started driving when I was 19 on a Chauffeur’s License, hauling pulpwood from northern Wi to the paper mills, but couldn’t leave the state until I was 21. Turned 21 in May, went over the road in September of that year, and bought my first truck a little over a year later. Glad I don’t own one now, but often think If I won the lottery I’d buy a big fancy KW and stainless spread reefer with a million lights and work a couple weeks a year! Haha

Edit: That green cabover KW I posted a picture of a few posts back got 3.75 to maybe 4.5 mpg on a good day. You always do a little better running east off the Rockies as mostly downhill and usually a tail wind. Of course, eventually you have to go back the other way! My last trip north from St Louis I had a huge tail wind and I was seeing 7.1 and 7.2 on the computer for a while, but the whole trip ended up being under 7 mpg. I’ve never compared it to actual, and since my company never says anything about it nor rewards me for good mileage, I don’t really worry about it much. I guess the time is a more important thing. I could do lots of things to get better fuel mileage like coast up small hills instead of powering over on cruise, but then I would be delivering tomorrow instead of today so what do you want?

 

[maxwelhse]

Traded that thing off won’t even consider a International for anything know a few people that went broke with the Maxxforce engine that would not run for more than a week without major work.

Hence why I didn't consider them for future employment when they closed down Fort Wayne. I thought they'd be out of business by now...

 

[JettaKnight]

Not what I heard at all, also while working at Nav, when I asked the same question. I worked with some guys in Powertrain that were there back in the day when they were still designing those trucks. The way I heard it International COEs in particular were desirable because we had some funky cab with windows at the feet so drivers could see right down to the nose of the truck. This was particularly awesome for garbage trucks, apparently. You can see the lineage of those trucks in the movies Real Steel and the original Terminator (maybe also T2). IH did them in mediums and heavies both.

Also... In typical Navistar fashion, when they exited the COE market they also just tossed Mack the 50%+ of the garbage truck business that the company had until that time. They did the same thing when they screwed up the RE bus by dropping the V8 and adding side cooling packages... I really miss trucks, but I really hate that company's decisions. Best and worst job I've ever had as a professional.

I see we had similar experiences there - I worked on the ProStar electronics.

I learned a lot - some of which by observing how not to do things.

Used to love International 9400,9900 simple to work on all the controls for the HVAC were under passenger seat easy to get at. They had a ford style starter solenoid on the firewall overall a good truck rode kinda rough and were noisy.

Then came the Prostar bought a 2008 with the Cummins truck had around 100,000 miles broke down in Nashville,TN sat for two weeks the body computer would not communicate with the engine computer. I eventually went down there and ran a hot wire from the battery to the engine computer. Mechanics could not figure out that would work thought I was a genius.

Traded that thing off won’t even consider a International for anything know a few people that went broke with the Maxxforce engine that would not run for more than a week without major work.

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I never touched the body controller, but sat next to the folks that did... yeah...

Hence why I didn't consider them for future employment when they closed down Fort Wayne. I thought they'd be out of business by now...

Yeah, they laid me off during one of the downsizing rounds before the move.

"Jetta, Ken over here wants your job, and he has seniority, so we have to let you go."
"Great! I have to start my new job in two weeks, so now I don't have to officially quit!"



The one really good part about that job was a trip to Germany to meet a supplier. That supplier happened to be within a few kilometers of my ancestral homeland, so one of the engineers drove me over there one afternoon.

 

[Wstar425]

With the new ELD’s pretty much eliminating the opportunity to get “creative” with your logs, I am
running into this situation once in a while.

i don’t have enough fuel to get there, and if I stop and buy fuel I don’t have enough time to get there. It’s a conundrum at times. I was two minutes to the good of making my last delivery yesterday aft, but needed fuel which put me 15-20 minutes short of getting there.

It appears that some drivers are taking their 30 minute break at the fuel island. Some companies allow you to move a little, and/or slowly but some you can’t move at all. Meanwhile the pumps back up, you can’t just count on pulling in and getting right into a pump without a wait.

We can move 1/4 mile as long as we stay under 5 mph. Hit 6 and it clicks to driving with no warning so you just wasted whatever off duty time you had accrued. Talk that might ihave to change soon.

 

[Bigtanker]

I can't help much there. We're exempt from the 30 break as long as we stay under 12 hours and in the 100 air mile radius of our terminal. But 6 mph on your post trip means you have to start all over again. At least for the logs.

 

[maxwelhse]

Yeah, they laid me off during one of the downsizing rounds before the move.

"Jetta, Ken over here wants your job, and he has seniority, so we have to let you go."
"Great! I have to start my new job in two weeks, so now I don't have to officially quit!"

Yep... I came in during the last big hiring round they did for 2010 emissions in 2009. I got almost 4 years out of it. I wasn't impressed with the union either, but, it's all bubbles in the beer now. I worked in medium duty powertrain. Did lots of bus stuff. I also learned an amazing amount working there. Lots of the best designers and engineers I've ever met worked at TDTC, and a few of the worst.

 

[JettaKnight]

With the new ELD’s pretty much eliminating the opportunity to get “creative” with your logs, I am
running into this situation once in a while.

i don’t have enough fuel to get there, and if I stop and buy fuel I don’t have enough time to get there. It’s a conundrum at times. I was two minutes to the good of making my last delivery yesterday aft, but needed fuel which put me 15-20 minutes short of getting there.

It appears that some drivers are taking their 30 minute break at the fuel island. Some companies allow you to move a little, and/or slowly but some you can’t move at all. Meanwhile the pumps back up, you can’t just count on pulling in and getting right into a pump without a wait.

We can move 1/4 mile as long as we stay under 5 mph. Hit 6 and it clicks to driving with no warning so you just wasted whatever off duty time you had accrued. Talk that might ihave to change soon.

Wow, that's a case study in unintended consequences, right there.

Yep... I came in during the last big hiring round they did for 2010 emissions in 2009. I got almost 4 years out of it. I wasn't impressed with the union either, but, it's all bubbles in the beer now. I worked in medium duty powertrain. Did lots of bus stuff. I also learned an amazing amount working there. Lots of the best designers and engineers I've ever met worked at TDTC, and a few of the worst.

Gotcha, I left in spring of 2007.

 

[maxwelhse]

Gotcha, I left in spring of 2007.

A good buddy of mine did too, then came back in shortly before I did. Dumbest thing ever to lay off a ton of guys and then beg them to come back 6 months later. That should have been a warning...

 

[Wstar425]

I’m at a fairly new Thornton’s fuel stop in Monee, Ill off of I-57. I see quite a few of these, all pretty new scattered around the Chicago and northern Illinois area. None in Wisconsin that I’m aware of. Is it a Chicago thing or are they popping up In Indiana as well?

Across the Interstate there is a Flying J which is a filthy, rat infested **** hole along with the Petro which is probably ok, but I like these pretty well from the few I’ve been in. Up at 1:30 am and headed to Chester, Ill and then St. Louis to pick up my oil at Schaeffer’s. Nighty nite!

 

[CindyE]

How are you guys dealing with Coronavirus? Some places are telling their employees not to let drivers in the building. Have you experienced that?

 

[JettaKnight]

There's a new trucking podcast, but mostly aimed at non-truckers. It's very well produced and polished.

https://www.overtheroad.fm/



I listened the first episode about MATS, and brought back memories of being there for Navistar's ProStar launch.


EDIT: Cindy, I see there's an episode addressing your question about COVID-19.

 

[Principal Skinr]

I heard that some states were letting up on driving time regulations to help the supply chain, particularly for food. Is that true?