Thoughts on Deinstitutionalisation

[Phase2]

I think the Dayton shooter fit more of what you're talking about. He seemed to be clearly a problem. Probably the Parkland shooter as well. The El Paso guy wasn't. No one had a clue. He was on no one's radar. Yoga shooter, the Toronto dude who used a vehicle, Eliot Roger in California, and a host of many others. You can bring back institutionalization, and clearly some people need that. But that's not going to stop mass shootings.

No single thing will fix this problem. No single thing is causing it. That doesn't mean that you stop trying to address it.

 

[Dead Duck]

Are you sure that's even a word?

 

[jamil]

When I look at those videos and photos of abuses in the "old" institutions, I really think we're talking about two different problems. The most egregious horrors of the old system seemed to involve people at a very low functional level who cannot even feed themselves. If you loaded an assault rifle and handed it to those people, they probably would not be capable of carrying out an attack.

Today's mass-shooters are higher-functioning individuals with the ability to plan ahead, but yet with incredible degrees of emotional disturbance.

Antidepressants and antianxiety medications can allow people like these to "fake" their way to adulthood with a spotless criminal background.

Clearly these individuals cannot simply be allowed to circulate unsupervised in the general population. But how do you get it done? The parents are in complete denial.

I'm really starting to think the solution has to be good old-fashioned law enforcement. The Dayton shooter reportedly had mental health counseling receipts in his pocket the moment he was killed. It's evident the counselors in that scenario are working for the shooter; not for society. They see him as a patient and get paid on his insurance to treat him and do what's best for _him_. What about the interests of society?

Regardless what resources are and aren't available for them to get institutional treatment, it's become clear their parents are never going to put them there until acted upon by some strong, unopposable outside force. It's starting to look like that outside force is going to have to be law enforcement, in the form of a conviction record that simply can't be ignored. We have to re-think our policy of not wanting to prosecute children under any circumstances.

I'd really like to see ideology stay out of it as well. All that does is create preconceived ideas about what solutions would be that don't actually fit the problem. I'm not applying that to the idea about institutionalization. I think we're not helping a lot of people who clearly need help. And if we're going to provide that help as a society, we need to make sure it's humane.

I do think a new kind of institution could possibly help the people who show the red flags, like conviction record. Or for cryin' out loud, pinning kill/rape lists on the bathroom wall. How was that kid allowed back in school after that?

But. The mass killing is a multivariate problem. It's not just one thing, and won't be just one solution if they don't have a common cause. It'll likely take a lot of solutions, and most of which won't be tolerated by the politically correct types. They're just too busy trying to ban guns to actually solve the problem. Some of the suggested solutions at best might stop a few shootings each. And then we must balance that with personal liberty. As gun owners we all know that it's wrong to tramp on some people's rights for a hope of safety. It applies just as much here.

One thing that might help more than any one thing. Stop doing wall-to-wall media coverage when these shootings happen. Stop giving them a place to get their names up on the leader board.

 

[jamil]

The parents were obviously not equipped to deal. But just curious: how do you know parenting alone, by itself, would have made Adam Lanza able to handle life on his own? Not talking about "other kids like him that you've seen." We're talking about Adam Lanza. I don't think you know what you say you know.

Should have said "may have" because I don't know it with any great certainty. The solutions we're talking about here are mostly spit-balling. But Adam Lanza's mom was an enabler. It was clear she doted him all his life. That can't help.

It may be that he was beyond help and that he'd have been the same regardless.

 

[jamil]

No single thing will fix this problem. No single thing is causing it. That doesn't mean that you stop trying to address it.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at institutions. I think we need to do something besides letting these people live on the streets. But also I certainly recognize it's not just one thing. It's many.

 

[halfmileharry]

There was a place at Tibbs and Washinton street. Indiana state facility and a branch in the north Tibbs area just south of the old Eagledale center. The branch was for the people that could function. They grew crops etc there.
The main facility was for those that needed to be institutionalized.

I can not remember the sitting Governors name but they defended and closed the place in the mid 70's I am thinking. The north facility before that. Actual dates are not important but yes, the homeless issues went vertical on the graph when this happened.

There was one out by the Liberty Richmond area was well. Long gone.

I'm pretty sure it was Gov Doc Bowen that oversaw the closing of Central state. I remember driving up and down Tibbs looking at the grounds going all to hell and overgrown. I could be wrong but I'm thinking I'm spot on with it.

 

[gmcttr]

Muscatatuck State Developmental Center was another institution and was closed in 2005. It is now the Muscatatuck Urban Training Center used to train first responders and training for military urban warfare.

I spent 2 years there in the late 70's renovating several buildings. I saw no patients there that could have lived on their own.

 

[churchmouse]

I'm pretty sure it was Gov Doc Bowen that oversaw the closing of Central state. I remember driving up and down Tibbs looking at the grounds going all to hell and overgrown. I could be wrong but I'm thinking I'm spot on with it.

You might be right. I had friends that worked in the facility as plumbers and electricians. They hated the place. No money for materials and repairs were makeshift at best.

 

[Dead Duck]

I get what you guys are saying but if we opened up the looney farms again and filled them with all the nut jobs out there.....

Who would be left to post on INGO?

 

[Phase2]

Oh man... Never thought of that...

 

[churchmouse]

I get what you guys are saying but if we opened up the looney farms again and filled them with all the nut jobs out there.....

Who would be left to post on INGO?

I would be out of this most lucrative position.....

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I would be out of this most lucrative position.....

Fenway/TexKev's "company car" =

Churchmouse's "company car" =

 

[femurphy77]

The sad thing about deinstitutionalization at least from the perspective of my employ is that there's good money in it IF you have insurance. Basically as long as you're being paid for it then there is a concern for mental health care.

 

[churchmouse]

The sad thing about deinstitutionalization at least from the perspective of my employ is that there's good money in it IF you have insurance. Basically as long as you're being paid for it then there is a concern for mental health care.

Bingo. Downside of capitalism.

 

[churchmouse]

Fenway/TexKev's "company car" =

Churchmouse's "company car" =

Ram bumper, rally wheels and I hope its got a Turbo.

 

[jamil]

Ram bumper, rally wheels and I hope its got a Turbo.

I think the only turbo offered in those were an electric fan used to keep the gerbils running on the wheel cool.

 

[churchmouse]

I think the only turbo offered in those were an electric fan used to keep the gerbils running on the wheel cool.

Those cars were just terrible. Friend bought one new to give his daughter a low over head car to drive at College. Man that was a mistake.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I agree with Jamil, that we have a cultural problem, on many fronts. You can see it manifest itself in many ways that we have discussed on this website. It's all part of a larger movement that says we have no higher authority than ourselves. There is no right and there is no wrong. Truth is basically your opinion.

The outrage mob determines which way society trends now.

Nearly all hospitals and mental health institutions used to be Christian funded and run organizations. Then people determined that God was offensive and replace Him with the State. In the '60 people determined that any sort of leadership was offensive and replaced the State with The People. Well, now we literally have the inmates running the asylum.

We need mental health institutions, but to make that work, we need a cultural shift back towards hard work, independence, chastity, and charity. We need to stop being a people who say, "someone should take care of that."

 

[d.kaufman]

Seems Trump is wanting to focus on the mental health issue and lack of mental institutions as well.

https://bearingarms.com/cam-e/2019/08/19/trump-people-pull-trigger-not-gun/

 

[Thor]

At least it's a part of the national discussion now.