Thoughts on Deinstitutionalisation

[KJQ6945]

At least it's a part of the national discussion now.

I wish it was more of the national discussion. Closing down the mental institutions created several of the problems that we are living today. Like most problems, they were created by leftists with "the best of intentions".
Now, they want to take away our guns to solve "this" problem, and they'll create 5 more problems. Liberalism is a mental illness!

 

[churchmouse]

Now, they want to take away our guns to solve "this" problem, and they'll create 5 more problems. Liberalism is a mental illness!

Precisely.

 

[AlVine]

Agreed. I didn't state that very well. I don't think everyone with a mental illness needs to be institutionalized.
In the Shapiro video, he stated there were 1/2 a million people in mental hospitals in 1960, and we had a population of 180 million. Today, with nearly 330 million people, we have around 24,000.

They walk among us, they are buying guns, legally, and they are doing a lot of bad things.

This is a problem. Major mental illness is present in about 20% of mass shooters, the mentally ill in general donÂ’t commit more crimes, or are any more violent than the general population. Scapegoating them to avoid more gun control is not helpful. I cringed when Trump said that, he just doesnÂ’t want to fight over gun control.

Trump was right about deinstitutionalization, though. That was a bad mistake and we do need more mental hospitals. There are a lot of mentally ill homeless people that just can not take care of themselves. There are also a lot of mentally ill people in prison where they get no treatment. We need places to put these people. But blaming them for mass shootings or other violent crimes is way off the mark. “They walk among us...”? Could that be any more melodramatic and demonizing? Scaring people away from seeking treatment only makes things worse. Yes, ‘they walk among us,’ because they ARE us, half of all Americans will experience some sort of mental illness sometime in their lives. It’s usually temporary and responds to treatment, but not if people are too embarrassed or scared to get help.

https://www.voanews.com/usa/fbi-study-most-mass-shooters-are-not-mentally-ill

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...hooting-and-the-myth-the-violent-mentally-ill

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...hooters-not-mentally-healthy-not-mentally-ill

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...tings-gun-violence-el-paso-dayton/1938491001/

 

[Thor]

Yeah, they walk among us. Sometimes you have to actually point a problem out before people see it (or are willing to admit it). The psycho meds being handed out like candy don't help. I don't see the problem being people not willing to seek help...those who need it rarely do; the problem is people being too afraid to mention that there might be a problem and ignoring it until it's to late.

 

[mmpsteve]

This is a problem. Major mental illness is present in about 20% of mass shooters,

Not to nitpic, and your post was much more comprehensive than I'm quoting, but major mental illness is present in 100% of mass shooters. It's an intuitive fact, and cannot be otherwise.

.

 

[KJQ6945]

I'll nit pick. We all know what a mass shooting is, and it's not 3 people shot like the FBI stats say. If you believe that a domestic situation, or a gang banger drive by, or a drug deal gone bad is a MASS shooting, then you'll believe, that only 20% of mass shooters are mental.

Texas clock tower

Luby's deli

Columbine

Va Tech

Tucson

Ft Hood

Sandyhook

Sutherland Springs

These are real mass shootings. Would you like to discuss the mental health of these shooters? There are plenty more, let's discuss their mental health also.

 

[Trigger Time]

Republicans will call for institutionalizing them. Democrats will cry no. Until they get them all registered and voting democrat.
Then the democrats will get control again and they will start executing the mentally ill like the nazis did. You know, because its the humane thing to do.
The democrat way. The real nazis.

But yes we must start locking up these nut cases.

 

[KJQ6945]

Shooting at a deputy from a 4 story building that houses mentally ill.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.com/2019/08/21/sheriffs-deputy-wounded-in-lancaster-shooting/amp/

 

[churchmouse]

I'll nit pick. We all know what a mass shooting is, and it's not 3 people shot like the FBI stats say. If you believe that a domestic situation, or a gang banger drive by, or a drug deal gone bad is a MASS shooting, then you'll believe, that only 20% of mass shooters are mental.

Texas clock tower

Luby's deli

Columbine

Va Tech

Tucson

Ft Hood

Sandyhook

Sutherland Springs

These are real mass shootings. Would you like to discuss the mental health of these shooters? There are plenty more, let's discuss their mental health also.

There are several more to go on that list but yes. So many of these people had a paper trail that verified they were a full bubble off plumb.

Well, plumb as we see it anyway.

 

[KJQ6945]

I drove on Shadeland ave underneath I-70 today. There are probably 15 to 20 people living under that bridge. We have record unemployment. Hell, McDonalds is probably paying $10 bucks an hour to anybody that will actually show up.

I'll stand by my comment, "they walk among us", and I'll add, it's by design from the left.

 

[churchmouse]

I drove on Shadeland ave underneath I-70 today. There are probably 15 to 20 people living under that bridge. We have record unemployment. Hell, McDonalds is probably paying $10 bucks an hour to anybody that will actually show up.

I'll stand by my comment, "they walk among us", and I'll add, it's by design from the left.

The left has a very well defined game plan with an as well defined end game.

 

[KJQ6945]

The left has a very well defined game plan with an as well defined end game.

And people on our side buy into it.

Do a Google search of mental illness and mass shooters. You will scroll through probably 4 pages of propaganda, written this week, before you get to anything even remotely based in reality.

They are white washing this right in front of us, because Trump brought up institutions. 3 weeks ago, there was a mix of information supporting both sides.

• In state prisons, 73 percent of women and 55 of men have at least one mental health problem
• In federal prisons, 61 percent of women and 44 percent of men
• In local jails, 75 percent of women and 63 percent of men

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/numbers-mental-illness-behind-bars

 

[Tombs]

I started reading about Deinstitutionalisation several weeks ago. I was curious as to why all the mental hospitals went away, and started searching a little. If you aren't familiar with the term, I encourage everyone to explore it. It is the root cause of a lot of our current issues, in my opinion.

Most of the mass shooters have a history of mental illness. We have a homeless epidemic, where people just give up on society, and decide to live under a bridge. In reality, I think we have a mental health epidemic, and the left is gonna use it to take away our guns, unless we address the real issue. Deinstitutionalisation.

President Trump referenced the lack of mental hospitals yesterday in his presser, and that we need to be creating new ones. Ben Shapiro touches on the issue in the thread that Bill of Rights started. https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...n/471646-oh-my-god-what-did-i-just-watch.html

The mentally ill, walk among us today, because better drugs will allow them to function normally, if they take them. The problem seems to be that they don't take their meds, because they don't think they need them, because they are after all,
mentally ill.

I think we need to institutionalize the mentally ill.

Why don't we point the finger at the man responsible for this problem instead of beating around the bush?

Ronald Reagan is directly responsible for this whole mess, he shut down practically all mental healthcare in the US, acting as if it was quackery. We're now living out the consequences of that quack's decision making.

 

[churchmouse]

Why don't we point the finger at the man responsible for this problem instead of beating around the bush?

Ronald Reagan is directly responsible for this whole mess, he shut down practically all mental healthcare in the US, acting as if it was quackery. We're now living out the consequences of that quack's decision making.

Was he responsible for the local institutions be de-funded by the state. I thought that was mostly local.

 

[Phase2]

Why don't we point the finger at the man responsible for this problem instead of beating around the bush?

Ronald Reagan is directly responsible for this whole mess, he shut down practically all mental healthcare in the US, acting as if it was quackery. We're now living out the consequences of that quack's decision making.

Wow. That is incredibly oversimplified. The issue is far, far, far wider than one man. Politicians, the press, the drug industry, the psychiatric profession and "do gooders" all share responsibility for destroying the mental hospital system. After scandals like Willowbrook State School, movies like One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest, and propaganda campaigns saying that local community outpatient care could take care of these people, the public was convinced that maintaining these hospitals was wrong. This was not a dictate from the top. Most of these were state-run hospitals, not federal.

 

[PaulF]

The talk of mental institutions kinda troubles me as a solution to whatever mental health issues might be relating to mass shootings. There’s only one or two instances where the shooter might have been institutionalized. That’s the Aurora theater shooting. I think that guy was mentally ill. Maybe there was another l, as well.

But most of these people just plain weren’t raised right. These narcissistic “incels” are losers because their parents and society are teaching them to be losers. Parents coddle successively more each generation and produce teens who can’t function. No confidence because they’re told they’re special, rather than helping them persevere through some hardships, as they able to handle them. Studies are showing that boys are falling behind in school while girls are generally thriving. And then we have the rabid feminist culture telling boys they need to be more like girls. Too many kids are growing up nihilistic with no purpose.

The ones who fall through all the cracks end up losers. No one wants to be a loser, so might as well go out winning something.

Institutionalization isn’t going to fix that. How the hell do you even know which ones need institutionalizing? Yes, I think it’s fine to talk about a solution to the severe and debilitating mental health problems. Maybe creating institutions to house and care for these people could help. But it’s not going to solve the reason we’re even talking about it.

Excellent points. I agree wholeheartedly.

Have you ever noticed how many of these guys have no father? From the everyday Chicago street thug to the middle-class ambush killer...doesn't it seem like a potentially statistically significant number of these dudes grew up without a dad?

I like practical, pragmatic solutions to problems. It's better to do things that work. Strong families breed strong societies. I think that's a truth that has proven itself again and again across human history. We have seen for over 50 years what the extremes of the "baby mama" lifestyle has done to our poorer communities, and that same thinking has taken a solid hold throughout the working and middle classes now.

Couple that with your excellent point about the coddling of modern children, frame it all in an Internet-connected world where the worst among us can easily find validation for their darkest delusions, and...well, you have a recipe for disaster. That's what. The process that produces these monsters is also fed by the false idea that in a free society there is no wrong way to live your life. I think that idea is corrosive to its core. In a free society it should be legal to live your life any way you choose so long as your behavior does not carry undue consequence for others. BUT, that doesn't mean there aren't better, more proven ways to live your life. How do we convince people that the better way to live their lives may not be that way that looks most appealing to them right now?

That's one of the things I learned from my father.

 

[jamil]

Why don't we point the finger at the man responsible for this problem instead of beating around the bush?

Ronald Reagan is directly responsible for this whole mess, he shut down practically all mental healthcare in the US, acting as if it was quackery. We're now living out the consequences of that quack's decision making.

He’s blamed for the whole thing, but that’s just not an accurate reading of history. He continued a policy that had started decades earlier, when the abuses in institutions were publicized. The movie, one flew over the cuckoo's nest, may have had more impact on deinstitutionalization than Reagan had. Probably, mental institutions as they existed needed to go. But something more humane should have replaced them.

 

[Phase2]

Have you ever noticed how many of these guys have no father? From the everyday Chicago street thug to the middle-class ambush killer...doesn't it seem like a potentially statistically significant number of these dudes grew up without a dad?

You certainly aren't the only one who has noticed. Problem is, it takes societal-level changes to fix what societal-level changes have broken and too many aren't willing to be "part of the discussion" because it might impact their chosen lifestyle.

What Do 26 of 27 Deadly American Mass Shooters Have In Common?

 

[KJQ6945]

I started this thread because I was genuinely curious about what others think about the lack of mental hospitals today. I don't think it's the sole reason for mass shootings, nor do I think we need to go back to treating mental illness like it's the year 1900.
I do think that society is being intentionally dismantled, piece by piece. The family aspect is a huge piece of that breakdown. The absence of fathers, and replacement by the government, has been a complete failure. This destruction by the left is ongoing, just evolving, with all of the same sex marriage BS.

Deinstitutionalization is just another piece of the destruction. There have always been crazy people. They didn't cure it, they just mask it with drugs, and send them out into society.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I completely agree that the institutional aspect of treating the mentally ill was the wrong way to go. Warehousing people and treating them according to standard procedure was not doing anyone any favors. Just as in physical medicine, we should have allowed mental medicine to evolve.

When was the last time a woman gave birth in a ward while the father sat in a lounge smoking a cigar looking at his progeny through a pane of glass?

The same needs to be done with in patient mental services.

Now, I can tell you from experience that I would rather treat a physical illness than a mental illness any day of the week. It is emotionally and physically EXHAUSTING, like nothing you have ever experienced, to treat a mentally ill person.

To properly treat the mentally ill, we would need to spend mountains of cash, as the burn out rate among those who actually interact with patients is enormous. Once the patience and compassion wears out, and it will, the abuse begins. We see it in senior living facilities (which also have high proportions of mental illness), abuse or neglect is always the biggest challenge.