Thoughts on Narcan

[Trigger Time]

I dont care if it hurts someones feelings (and I'm truly not making fun of those with feelings on the issue, I respect your opinion), but my honest opinion is to let nature run its coarse. If you want to kill yourself then so be it and I feel nothing for your poor repeat choices.

If you're ****ing with that **** then you better accept that you are playing Russian roulette. I dont think it should be put on anyone to save your ass so that you can hurt others again before you off yourself eventualy anyways.

And if you were on drugs and you stopped then good. But you arent some hero or role model for normal people. You ****ed up and did **** you shouldnt have and felt scared or had a come to jesus moment and you finaly chose common ****ing sense and to stop hurting the other people around you and to leave the drugs behind. Good.
But shut the **** up about it, I dont need to constantly hear your story or read a book about it. That's like me ****ing a bunch of whores and knowing it's wrong the whole time and then finaly stopping doing what was wrong and then asking to be rewarded with a candy bar. Well no. You set up your own bad situation and you sure as hell shouldn't be rewarded for now doing the normal and legal thing like every other ****ing normal person in the world who doesnt **** whores.
So congrats on being a small percentage of the weakest people on earth. (Insert drugs in place of whores) not that I have a problem with whores if it was legal and if you didnt harm anyone else by your actions. Same with drugs. If you can keep yourself in check and not hurt anyone else then feel free to kill yourself on drugs. I dont care.

That being said, I respect and appreciate the job that our first responders do daily. They are like a battlefield medic that treats a wounded enemy soldier the same way they would one of their own. I could not do what they do. I am not that good of a person like they are. So nothing against them at all for doing what they feel is right or even if they are just following orders. I commend them.

But I have no sympathy for a drug addict and if they die, the sun will come up tomorrow for the rest of us and we will be better off.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Bet you’d be more tolerant if your son was the one on the receiving end of the medicine!?

I doubt it, I would not support a child chasing the Dragon...

 

[NHT3]

I dont care if it hurts someones feelings (and I'm truly not making fun of those with feelings on the issue, I respect your opinion), but my honest opinion is to let nature run its coarse. If you want to kill yourself then so be it and I feel nothing for your poor repeat choices.

If you're ****ing with that **** then you better accept that you are playing Russian roulette. I dont think it should be put on anyone to save your ass so that you can hurt others again before you off yourself eventualy anyways.

And if you were on drugs and you stopped then good. But you arent some hero or role model for normal people. You ****ed up and did **** you shouldnt have and felt scared or had a come to jesus moment and you finaly chose common ****ing sense and to stop hurting the other people around you and to leave the drugs behind. Good.
But shut the **** up about it, I dont need to constantly hear your story or read a book about it. That's like me ****ing a bunch of whores and knowing it's wrong the whole time and then finaly stopping doing what was wrong and then asking to be rewarded with a candy bar. Well no. You set up your own bad situation and you sure as hell shouldn't be rewarded for now doing the normal and legal thing like every other ****ing normal person in the world who doesnt **** whores.
So congrats on being a small percentage of the weakest people on earth. (Insert drugs in place of whores) not that I have a problem with whores if it was legal and if you didnt harm anyone else by your actions. Same with drugs. If you can keep yourself in check and not hurt anyone else then feel free to kill yourself on drugs. I dont care.

That being said, I respect and appreciate the job that our first responders do daily. They are like a battlefield medic that treats a wounded enemy soldier the same way they would one of their own. I could not do what they do. I am not that good of a person like they are. So nothing against them at all for doing what they feel is right or even if they are just following orders. I commend them.

But I have no sympathy for a drug addict and if they die, the sun will come up tomorrow for the rest of us and we will be better off.

Finally from Trigger Time comes the voice of reason, I would rep you but the system says I should spread it around more. Like CM and obviously Trigger Time I have no sympathy for this behavior. Watched a couple of Live PD episodes where they Narcaned the same guy two weekends in a row. As Trigger Time so eloquently put it "let nature take it's course". Where is the concern for our first responders that are risking THEIR lives for people that don't give a whit about their own life? Running red lights and siren to these calls as well as possibilities of blood borne diseases or a myriad other dangers puts VERY good people in VERY high risk situations.
My empathy is with the good people that have to deal with those that don't want to live. First responders are in short supply now and situations like dealing with the same Junkie over and over have to be taking a toll on their ranks. I wish I knew the answer but it seems for many it's a personality defect and the lack of Narcan rather than administering Narcan appears to be the cure that some are searching for. How many times should our first responders go balls out to a call where a guy has a gun pointed at his own head and disarm him, only to get the same call the next day? I don't see any difference in the two situations. At some point "let nature take it's course" is the only solution.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Sadly, Insulin junkies don’t get their fix for free. Why should others who don’t really want to live?

I hear this argument a lot. Other than police dosing narcan, everyone else will bill the overdose patient. And honestly I think there should be an ordinance against hypoventilating due to narcotics. Slap a $500 fine on them.

Often there isn’t even an arrest made or a warrant put out. Soft landing, no consequence = zero deterrent

 

[MrsGungho]

Live PD... some days I could say Live PD tapes in my place of employment. For those who don't know, I am the manager at a local Convenience store in Indianapolis.

Now with this said.... I have called 911 numerous times for OD victims. Each and every time I see them brought back by the almighty Narcan, only to be in my store or my lot, doing the same damn thing again.
I see the same zombie stares from so many stumbling in, asking for the key to the bathroom so they can go shoot up again. I see so many stealing whatever they can, to make a dollar so they can go buy that next fix. begging for money from the customers coming in. I run them off, try to get my product back, whatever I can to get them to go elsewhere.

Yesterday I had to ask one to not return, after she shot up in the bathroom, lost control of her bodily functions and left a mess everywhere... for at least the second time that I know of.

I used to feel sorry for them, I can't find that sympathy anymore. I feel sorry for the family and friends that are watching this downward spiral that their loved one is in.

I'll call 911, but that is where my help stops. I will not touch them, I will not administer CPR, I will not lose sleep over them.

There needs to be an answer. I don't know that narcan is that answer.

 

[jsharmon7]

It’s such a complex issue. Even if you break it down to simple terms like whether it’s a choice or a disease, the answer is still complicated. If we decide this is a disease, should we feel sorry for drug addicts? Should we feel sorry for someone who smokes 2 packs a day and gets lung cancer? Or someone who eats Burger King 3 times a day, never gets off the couch, and ends up with diabetes and heart disease? I tend to fall into the category (for most, but not all, drug addicts) that it’s a disease of lifestyle choices. I see way too many young folks who are addicts who have had no reason to become addicted to pain killers which were legitimately prescribed. Most of them just live that lifestyle. Sure, there are folks who have severe injuries or health problems who end up hooked on the prescriptions. My experience has been they’re the minority. When it comes to NarCan, how do we differentiate? If someone has a heart attack, do we differentiate between lifestyle choices and bad genetics when we decide to call an ambulance? It’s just too complicated of an issue and I’m not smart enough to have the answer.

 

[cobber]

How about a narcan ipecac cocktail? Rescue with an unhappy ending, as opposed to a 'soft landing'?

 

[eldirector]

How about 2 vials? One is Narcan, the other more drugs.

Like a "Choose your own adventure" book.

 

[Dean C.]

I have tried to "figure this issue out" , been reading the reports, watching the documentaries , they all seem to say the same thing Narcan makes herion abusers feel "safe" they know that if the OD they will more than likely not die and be revived (no one has ever made a comment about being arrested acting like a detterrant junkies just don't care).

The State of Indiana has had an HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis on the rise due to Junkies sharing needles , the bad thing is at least to me it appears that most people currently on herion they all got started with perscription pain killers and the pharmacutical company Purdue (I don't think it's related to Purdue University ) pushing Oxycontin to doctors as a "safe pain management tool" because it appears to me at least that opoid based pain killers were not nearly as commonly used in the United States till the 1990's (I would LOVE Hoosierdocs input on this) .

So I feel like any response has to start on multiple levels, non-opoid pain management practices need to be researched and employed in order to reduce the large number of people who get hooked off perscriptions. Then ramping up enforcement at the dealer / distributor level is nessesary and as much as I hate mandatory minimums and whatnot we need to put the fear of god into these dealers regarding Fentanyl if you are cought with it I would honestly like to see basically instant life in prison.

The above would hopefully redice the total number of new addicts each year , but I tend to agree with Trigger Time as to the use of Narcan on actual addicts. But then again no one ever called me sympathetic to people's self inflicted problems (honestly one of the major reasons I chose to not pursue Medical School). The current junkies honestly society can write them off, most never recover or relapse very quickly of they do get clean. All they end up being is a drain on an already overtaxed system.




https://www.wthr.com/article/hepatitis-outbreak-indiana-hits-700-cases-past-year

https://news.yale.edu/2018/09/13/new-study-finds-hiv-outbreak-indiana-could-have-been-prevented

 

[churchmouse]

ItÂ’s such a complex issue. Even if you break it down to simple terms like whether itÂ’s a choice or a disease, the answer is still complicated. If we decide this is a disease, should we feel sorry for drug addicts? Should we feel sorry for someone who smokes 2 packs a day and gets lung cancer? Or someone who eats Burger King 3 times a day, never gets off the couch, and ends up with diabetes and heart disease? I tend to fall into the category (for most, but not all, drug addicts) that itÂ’s a disease of lifestyle choices. I see way too many young folks who are addicts who have had no reason to become addicted to pain killers which were legitimately prescribed. Most of them just live that lifestyle. Sure, there are folks who have severe injuries or health problems who end up hooked on the prescriptions. My experience has been theyÂ’re the minority. When it comes to NarCan, how do we differentiate? If someone has a heart attack, do we differentiate between lifestyle choices and bad genetics when we decide to call an ambulance? ItÂ’s just too complicated of an issue and IÂ’m not smart enough to have the answer.

In all of this there is one solid truth.....I/you/we did not hold a gun to anyone's head and say take these drugs or I will end you. No one. 99.999% choose to take that 1st dose outside having a script for pain/depression whatever.

In this age of information the knowledge is right there in your phone. On your laptop. In your face 24/7 on TV. Yet so many choose to step onto the path that will lead them to no where. It is a choice to "Start" so I will not call it a disease but a choice. Once in the hot mess there are so few that can stop. That is a defect.
These lost souls rely on the good hearts of those who will wake them up from deaths grasp. And with zero regard go right back and chase that very same demon again.

And if one wakes up. Has that moment that says OK this is wrong and steps back into the light they expect all to be OK. No worries on the years of lies and stealing and hurt they have done. Life will catch up to you once you become stationary. What you have sown is still out there. No rainbows and kittens. Just the harsh reality of a wasted amount of your life with no fall back. Ground zero. Harsh but reality. I have watched this to many times. 1 is to many but have seen more.
My son is in this boat as I type. It has left us all permanently scared. My brother, the spouses sister.....all more painful than I have words.

I have to say "TT" has hit this one out of the park. My ability to feel anything for this is like MrsG's....used up.

 

[femurphy77]

How about 2 vials? One is Narcan, the other more drugs.

Like a "Choose your own adventure" book.

I applaud those people that are better than me and will administer Narcan to the same person over and over again. Personally I believe it is for the child that inadvertently ingests their "parents" stash or other innocent that was unwittingly exposed. Zombies be damned!

 

[thunderchicken]

My stance on this issue seems to sway just a bit depending on the day. I have never used an illegal drug in my life and have only been drunk twice. My sister in law has struggled with drug addiction/recovery ever since I have known her (almost 20 years). Most og my wifes family has basically turned their backs on her because her life choices. My wife is one of the few who is still there for her if she needs help. Now my wife won't enable her or give her money, but she will feed her and help her with basic necessities. My SIL is basically homeless as she goes from friends place to friends place. Recently she was with an old "friend" from high school and she used heroin for the first time (that we know of). She was found in the restroom of a laundry & tan unresponsive. First responders adminiatered 2 doses of Narcan and began CPR. They were able to bring her back. My wife found out only because her sisters "friend" who was with her and left her in the restroom sent a message on Fbook. The message was basically "your sister OD'd last night call hospitals to see if she made it." my wife and MIL were frantically calling hospitals, county jail, coroners office trying to find her. They were finally able to get in contact with her and she claims she had never used heroin before and never will (we'll see). So, I'm ok with first responders using Narcan in an effort to save a life. Even junkies often have family who aren't ready to give up on them.
I think of Nitrous Oxide that's given by a dentist as pure. But when I buy it for my racecar, it has had sulfur added so if someine chooses to huff it they will receive a massive headache instead. I would be ok with Narcan having an additive that would give a bumpier landing. I'm not sure what else can be done that would give a measurable result to determine effectiveness.
Hoosiedoc said that when administored by first responders/hospitals etc that an addict will be billed. Sure, but who pays that bill? I would bet most addicts never make a payment to a hospital or ambulance service. Does Medicaid/Medicare (I get them confused) cover it for those on welfare? Or does it get passed on to the rest of us by another means?
My issue is with all the free needle exchange programs. My wife has been diabetic since she was 7yo and insulin dependent. She didn't make poor choices that led to it. But we have to pay $250/month for insulin, plus $400 every 90 days for supplies for her insulin pump, plus had to pay 3k out of pocket for the pump. While addicts are enabled by giving them free needles, mediacl treatment that only gets the costs passed on to the rest of us. That needs to be addressed somehow. If a person dies from the poor choices of drug use, while tragic by senseless loss of life we can't control that. We just have to live with it and move on. Until we do something meaningful to clean up the streets and take drugs off the street nothing will change. Just a continuation if a vicious cycle

 

[Spear Dane]

Narcan - You get ONE revive. I don't see that how it's delivered matters at all since the person is unconscious. But one is all you get. After that we let nature take it's course and the problem become self correcting.

 

[Sigblitz]

Lots of emotion here. For the sanctity of human life, whether anyone values that life, people struggling with addiction shouldn't have to die or fear asking for a lifeline. It's an unpopular opinion. As in all things, when you help one, others take advantage of it. Women get pregnant when they go to jail because only pregnant inmates can get methadone. So with a lifeline comes the crap. There never seems to be a perfect solution for anything because people are going to exploit it.

 

[M67]

That's my view


After the first, you're on your own

 

[jsharmon7]

In all of this there is one solid truth.....I/you/we did not hold a gun to anyone's head and say take these drugs or I will end you. No one. 99.999% choose to take that 1st dose outside having a script for pain/depression whatever.

....

I have to say "TT" has hit this one out of the park. My ability to feel anything for this is like MrsG's....used up.

I completely understand that viewpoint. It’s hard to feel bad for people who make stupid decisions. I guess I tend to ask myself whether I would feel the same way if a morbidly obese person has a heart attack outside of KFC, should we treat them the same way? The info is out there, the poor lifestyle choices have been made, and it’s tough to feel bad for them. It’s up to the individual I guess...

 

[churchmouse]

I completely understand that viewpoint. It’s hard to feel bad for people who make stupid decisions. I guess I tend to ask myself whether I would feel the same way if a morbidly obese person has a heart attack outside of KFC, should we treat them the same way? The info is out there, the poor lifestyle choices have been made, and it’s tough to feel bad for them. It’s up to the individual I guess...

I believe you have met my son. He was a hard worker with a decent heart. Until he decided to take another path.

 

[WebSnyper]

welfare contributes greatly because working has nothing to do with eating in this country anymore. When you get free food, housing, healthcare, sitting around and getting into trouble just sorta happens.

if you had to get up for work to eat and have a house, we’d see less stupidity

Agreed... get out and work for a living to survive and a lot of stupidity ends, or at least people learn to become functioning addicts, etc.

I dont care if it hurts someones feelings (and I'm truly not making fun of those with feelings on the issue, I respect your opinion), but my honest opinion is to let nature run its coarse. If you want to kill yourself then so be it and I feel nothing for your poor repeat choices.

If you're ****ing with that **** then you better accept that you are playing Russian roulette. I dont think it should be put on anyone to save your ass so that you can hurt others again before you off yourself eventualy anyways.

And if you were on drugs and you stopped then good. But you arent some hero or role model for normal people. You ****ed up and did **** you shouldnt have and felt scared or had a come to jesus moment and you finaly chose common ****ing sense and to stop hurting the other people around you and to leave the drugs behind. Good.
But shut the **** up about it, I dont need to constantly hear your story or read a book about it. That's like me ****ing a bunch of whores and knowing it's wrong the whole time and then finaly stopping doing what was wrong and then asking to be rewarded with a candy bar. Well no. You set up your own bad situation and you sure as hell shouldn't be rewarded for now doing the normal and legal thing like every other ****ing normal person in the world who doesnt **** whores.
So congrats on being a small percentage of the weakest people on earth. (Insert drugs in place of whores) not that I have a problem with whores if it was legal and if you didnt harm anyone else by your actions. Same with drugs. If you can keep yourself in check and not hurt anyone else then feel free to kill yourself on drugs. I dont care.

That being said, I respect and appreciate the job that our first responders do daily. They are like a battlefield medic that treats a wounded enemy soldier the same way they would one of their own. I could not do what they do. I am not that good of a person like they are. So nothing against them at all for doing what they feel is right or even if they are just following orders. I commend them.

But I have no sympathy for a drug addict and if they die, the sun will come up tomorrow for the rest of us and we will be better off.

I agree with this 100%. Everyone applauds the ones who make it through rehab, once , twice, 10 times, usually at someone else's expense, etc ... that's great. How about the guy who makes it through the same crap every day without that crutch. The person who never drives under the influence with a kid in the car, or steals something they did not work for to fuel their habit, etc. The person who understood what drugs, etc would do to them or the ones around them who would become collateral damage from their behavior, and didn't go down that road. Or better yet, the ones who see tragic stuff every day or keep helping out someone who destroys themselves without themselves needing a crutch. Those are the folks that I respect.

Narcan - You get ONE revive. I don't see that how it's delivered matters at all since the person is unconscious. But one is all you get. After that we let nature take it's course and the problem become self correcting.

Agreed, tattoo gets applied after the first dose. That's your one free one. After that, you better figure it out, otherwise no Narcan for you.

 

[WebSnyper]

Lots of emotion here. For the sanctity of human life, whether anyone values that life, people struggling with addiction shouldn't have to die or fear asking for a lifeline. It's an unpopular opinion. As in all things, when you help one, others take advantage of it. Women get pregnant when they go to jail because only pregnant inmates can get methadone. So with a lifeline comes the crap. There never seems to be a perfect solution for anything because people are going to exploit it.

Sanctity of life is a thing, right up until they start destroying their own life and taking others down with them. Kind of like the sanctity of life until you break into my house to steal or harm those I care about. Then the perpetrator's sanctity of life was forfeit by their own decision and it's on. Stupid has consequences.

 

[igotdiesel2]

As I read these types of threads all I can think about is the 2 kids I have in the other part of the house. I have a 13 yo daughter and 10 year old son. I pray every night that they look at my example and others like me that they don't choose this type of life.

CM I read your posts about this topic and can almost see your pain through your words on the screen and hope like hell I never feel anything close to what you have encountered.

I know I am blessed that I have NEVER seen this crap first hand or even heard stories of family members with a drug problem. The only one close is The Wife has a cousin who is really into drugs, so much so that we don't know if he is even still alive.

My opinion (and what does that get you now a days?) about the whole Narcan thing is like most others. My Christian side of me says help all who need it if you can. The working hard to support me and mine side is let the druggies sleep in the bed they made for themselves.

So there you have it, it's as easy and complicated as that. My hats off to the Police, Fire, EMS, and ER Docs and Nurses that have to deal with this on a regular basis. I couldn't do it.

May God bless all who are hurt by this kind of stuff in their lives. -That is all I can -Jason