Too important to keep my mouth shut anymore Part I

[mercop]

I believe you are right, it is simpler than that. There are people who would just ball up if punched in the face. Then on the other hand I have seen people that did not have so much to say fight like pit bulls.

Those of us who have been forced to take a life have little tolerance for people who think that it is no big deal.

Funny thing is though that the more you train the less likely you are to have to use deadly force. The year after the NYPD started doing force on force they saw a 50% reduction in police involved shootings and their hit percentage rose by 2/3rds.

It makes sense that if you practice problem solving skills and recognizing options during violent situations you will get better at resolving them with a lower level of force. You will also be faster to recognize when their is no choice but to use deadly force.

Please feel free to let me know who was making the tampon jokes. Me thinks they could be put in a situation where they would spot through their favorite white slacks.


- Geogre

 

[jdhaines]

Good post George. I missed this somehow. You're speaking my language. 2 classes in this style and looking to do more. In addition to the classes and instructors mentioned I will add ECQC with Southnarc through Shivworks into this category bringing the total to 3 so far. Props to you George for saying these things out loud.

 

[benkrebs]

This is a great post full of accurate observations. +1 Rep. Where can someone take classes that simulate these scenarios?

 

[mercop]

As many have said their are few trainers out there mixing it up. As far as I know the only other instructors doing the who open hand, stick, knife, and gun with extreme violence and force on force thing are Southnarc, and Gabe Suarez. I have never met or trained with either but I think we can all be explained with the mindset of using overwhelming force of violence so the attacker quickly realizes he failed in the victim selection process. If your personal protection training is based on you or your attacker having a specific tool, you need to reevaluate your mindset, then get some realistic training, and then worry about tools. Not the other way around.

Several people have asked me why Part I has so many more posts and views than Part II and here are my thoughts-

I think one of the reasons there are probably less replies is because of the fascination by many with knife fighting. If people except what I report at truth or at least likelihood (and I suggest you research and pressure test yourself) then they would have to either-

Be happy because they are training for the most likely scenarios
Realize they have spend much time and money training for something that is likely never going to happen the way they have trained for it
Realize that they need to train for the most likely scenario, with a concentration on the violence and not the tool

When they say someone is good with a knife, what the hell does that mean? That they can carve someone up like a turkey? Or that they are a knife fight champion? It is like saying that someone who is a good shooter is less likely to get shot. Yes I am generalizing but you get the idea.

Training has never been a "hobby" for me, it has always been part of my career path and life. If I want to spend time having fun I will smoke cigars and shoot my bow in the yard. I have always been on a quest to find out the things I most need to prepare for and the most efficient way of doing so. That way I can go back to smoking cigars and shooting my bow.

In order of the classes I teach, here they are in order of what I feel is most needed and useful based on my experience and research. You will notice that the most important classes are not sexy and require little gear, that sucks for people that want to max their credit card to get all dolled up for SEAL fantasy camp.

High Threat Driving
Traumatic Injury Management
Combat Pen (basically a self-defense course where the concentration is using the pen if Awareness, and Avoidance fail)
Spontaneous Attack Suppression
Combative Pistol (if you can carry a pistol)
Inverted Edge Tactics
Combative Shotgun
Combative Rifle

The funny thing is that even though I list Combative Rifle dead last, and it costs the most money to attend and equip for, what do you see as the most popular "tactical" classes going? It is also the one where you see middle aged men running around in multicam, plate carriers, and chest rigs. The same guys who would have no idea what to do if their wife walked through a sliding glass door and cut her brachial artery. Again more bull**** and fairy dust. - George

 

[jeremy]

The funny thing is that even though I list Combative Rifle dead last, and it costs the most money to attend and equip for, what do you see as the most popular "tactical" classes going? It is also the one where you see middle aged men running around in multicam, plate carriers, and chest rigs. The same guys who would have no idea what to do if their wife walked through a sliding glass door and cut her brachial artery. Again more bull**** and fairy dust. - George

If my Wife walked through a Sliding Glass Door and cut her Brachial?!

First sue the **** out of whomever owns said Door...
Then Buy Lots of Beer, Guns, and a new Porsche...

Did I get that right?!

 

[redpitbull44]

If my Wife walked through a Sliding Glass Door and cut her Brachial?!

First sue the **** out of whomever owns said Door...
Then Buy Lots of Beer, Guns, and a new Porsche...

Did I get that right?!

 

[Freeborn Man]

Another problem, one that really pisses me off is that many people think that only those with lots of extra time, money, ammo, and physical ability should be able to defend themselves. What about the guy who is working his ass off to pay the bills, wife is at home with kids or out of work, with a tight budget and bad back from a car accident. Does he have any less right to protect him and his family than someone who can afford to attend every school out there, and create a mound of once fired brass? Not as far as I am concerned. And guess what, there are more of the former out there than the latter. My goal is to let those people know that realistic training does not require unlimited time and money.

I fall into the catagory of bad back and knees and not in shape. I was interested in a carbine course by a well respected instructor until he said if you're not in shape don't take the class because you will hold everyone up or something to that effect. So I didn't take the class and wondered where I could take some classes that I would be welcome to learn some things for self preservation. I am interested in a class near Indy if you will have me.

Matt

 

[mercop]

Matt, I don't deny anyone the right to train, my classes are done in a fashion that even if you cannot go hands on with another person or run and gun you will still be able to grasp the information. Not being in good shape will not get you a pass from having to defend yourself or your family so it should not prevent you from training.

The other thing I talk about in class is knowing what your physical abilities and weaknesses are. They will often allow you to use a greater level of force faster than an able bodied person.- George

 

[IndySSD]

George, I don't know why most would get angry at your post. This is stuff that a lot of us have realized for quite some time now. I didn't read all of the followups yet, but your OP seems pretty spot on.

I'd venture a guess and say that people on other sites who perhaps aren't quite as humble as many of us here on INGO would probably have had their ego's more than a little bruised by that first post.

I for one have discovered the eternal truth that is :

"The more you learn, the more you realize there is so much more that you don't know."

Everyone starts at the same place; by taking their first class....

Well said!

Matt, I don't deny anyone the right to train, my classes are done in a fashion that even if you cannot go hands on with another person or run and gun you will still be able to grasp the information. Not being in good shape will not get you a pass from having to defend yourself or your family so it should not prevent you from training.

The other thing I talk about in class is knowing what your physical abilities and weaknesses are. They will often allow you to use a greater level of force faster than an able bodied person.- George

As far as the bold portion goes, do you mean in the eyes of the legal system as far as what actions can be considered as "reasonable responses" to a physical threat by an aggressor?

By the way, if you're ever doing a FoF in Indy, or if anyone is putting together a group to do one, please contact me as I would very much like to participate. It's been a while since I got whacked in the head.

 

[mercop]

I am talking about how a reasonable person would conclude that someone with a preexisting back injury would be able to use a higher level of force than a person with no history.

The same is true for a person who has temporary paralysis after being knocked to the ground. I am always shocked by the number of people who have never trained to shoot from the ground, or even more so by the people who have never trained to draw and shoot after being knocked down. You don't want the first time you have to do it to be for real. They are trying to do a course in NWI.- George

 

[CoachStall]

Great point Shay, I was forced early on as a young soldier to train. So now it is no big deal. But someone who wakes up one day as an adult and goes to their first class has courage.- George

Details sent VIA PM

Looking for the Details on this...

...
High Threat Driving
Traumatic Injury Management
Combat Pen (basically a self-defense course where the concentration is using the pen if Awareness, and Avoidance fail)
Spontaneous Attack Suppression
Combative Pistol (if you can carry a pistol)
...

Interested in this as well. Great stuff and as an average guy with only a couple of classes geared at developing mechanics for range shooting, i would like to expand. Not to knock the stuff i learned, i just want to be practical.

 

[mercop]

OK, just put 12 more people through the 8 hr Combative Pistol Course. 10 men, 2 women. One boy was 15 and came with his Dad who is an instructor. Two had trained with me previously (edged weapons). About half were serious shooters Two had what I could describe as a serious training background. Here are some learning points-

On an average everyone fired around 75 rounds of airsoft during drill and scenarios. Even during scenarios no rounds were fired past 7 yards. Every thing started from the holster in response to furtive movement, be shocked with stun gun, or being punched in the head after having a sheet pulled of your head in a dark room ( headgear and boxing gloves).

At the end of the class we talked it over and came up with following numbers-

There were two head shots (one was my face), but both of the people who fired them said it was not on purpose.
Approx 80%+ rounds struck between the groin and nipple line, many hit the arms and hands since they were between the muzzle and COM of the attacker.

No students reported being able to close one eye during any drills.
No students reported being able to see their sights, due to the distance they did not have time or room to get the gun to eye level.

Other thoughts-
T-shirts, and t-shirt material polos are more likely to foul your draw. Even using a two handed draw technique many people got a whole hand full of shirt.

The first drill we do starts with you standing just within arms distance from the attacker, when the attacker reaches for their gun you Panic Push them into a wall before drawing your concealed pistol, moving laterally, and engaging the target one handed. I counted two misses on the target, with the majority of the rounds striking a Zombie Target between the groin and nipple line. Nobody was able to tell who shot what. At bad breath difference those who were better marksman never got the chance to use that skill set.

Here is what strikes me at the main points-
Carry a gun
Learn to identify the visual cues that provoke you to draw
Work on deploying your pistol from even disadvantageous position you can imagine
Incorporate forward/lateral movement into the draw

I also tried a new drill I am calling the navigation drill, we put a table and some chairs in the room as obstacles in a dark room. The student get strobed in the eyes for a few seconds and then has to draw their pistol and navigate the obstacles with their off hand, until they find the wall that leads out the door. Lets just say their was a lot of bumping and knocking into things. Can't imagine doing it with both hands on the gun.

Some things that students pointed out-

There is no substitute for drawing against a living, breathing, human being.
Airsoft hurts, lots of bleeding. That is why they sign a release

During the class students also had to fall to their back, draw their pistol and engage a target that was charging them. Even though they were instructed not do, many fell landed on their strong side elbow, which may disable their arm if done on concrete. PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO FALL. This is another good reason to knock them down

I am sure their is more, but that is all I can think of for now. I will post some pics soon.- George

 

[Wabatuckian]

George, I jumped in over on the PA board.

Josh

 

[MidwestMuzzleloader]

Great info in this thread. Thanks for sharing.

 

[hoosierbulldog]

I'm not afraid to admit that your post changes the way I look at training, in a good way. Being new to the forum I wasn't really sure what type of subjects I would find, but I'm glad I found this one. Great post George, thanks for the tips and wisdom.

 

[mercop]

I was just brought in by Freestate Gun Range in Baltimore to run their tactical training. We did a four hour Intro to Combat Pistol. The first two hours are spent on fundamentals, and then I take them outside for an introduction to combative pistol. Most people liked both parts but were flabbergasted an how little of the live range work had to do with the force on force and in many circumstances caused you to have the worst possible reaction of standing still.

Staged gun fights within arms reach, they start with me dropping a tennis ball

Stun gun start, pain may be the first thing that lets you know you are in a fight

 

[Wabatuckian]

Hello George,

Have you ever thought about getting a medic to administer pseudoephedrine HCl or epinephrine to mimic a fight-or-flight response?

One of the schools was playing with this a while back, and I took a hit with an EpiPen ( Home Page - EpiPen ) to see what the effects would be.

It was very similar to an adrenaline dump (which makes sense as epinephrine is a fancy way of saying "adrenaline").

The target I was to engage was set up on hydraulics to come straight at me. Not as realistic, but it's what we had.

The effects were, for me, about 50% realistic. In other words, the real thing is, of course, much more intense, but the epinephrine training was better than running a mile before shooting.

I do not know what your lawyers might say about this sort of thing, though...

Josh

 

[Taylorz71]

Thank you for this post. I agree with everything that you have said, but it is scary and hard to admit that I am not prepared. I have been stocking up on needed supplies just in case we do loose what everyone died for starting around 1776. Now it is time to really prepare to fight and hope I don't need it. Thanks again for this post.

 

[mercop]

If at the end of a training day you are always feeling good about yourself, they you are not being challenged or training realistically.

It comes down to time and commitment. There is no time to practice bull****- George

 

[Exodus]

Damn, now that's serious training. The tazer made me LOL but holy **** I highly doubt that I wouldn't end up on the ground or pissing myself if that happened in the real world.