Town Hall Meeting: INGO and Law Enforcement

[SilentWarrior1]

Firstly, I'd like to start of with: This is the internet. The more you put yourself out there, the more you open yourself up for ridicule. If you get your feelings hurt over someone else's view or opinion easily, perhaps you shouldn't post on the internet. You're not ready to deal with people.

That being said: When someone gets repeatedly bashed for something another sect of their profession did that may or may not apply to them... Wouldn't you expect someone to get defensive at some point? Complaining about generalites will get you nothing but headache. If you're going to complain, be specific. No one likes to be painted with a broad brush.

Cops in general get a bad rap for the stupid crap that the individuals do. My father was in and out of Law Enforcement for 30+ years. I can't tell you how many stories he'd come home with where one of his fellow officers did something stupid, and then his deparment would get some form of reprimand because of one individual idiot.

Yes, we can agree there are training issues as a whole within the LEO Community. That's a problem with their upper eschelons, not the individual officer. If an individual officer is acting like a douchebag, then call that individual officer out. Get their name and badge number. Write a letter, and send copies to every level of their chain of command. File a formal complaint. SOMEONE will deal with it.

How can we ease this tensions on INGO? It's not an easy fix, I can tell you that. You COULD start a forum for LEO's... but that just pushes the notion that LEO's get special treatment. At the end of the day, they put their pants on the same way we do. One leg at a time.

INGO is a place for ALL people, regardless of your profession, to discuss firearms. If LEO's get their own forum, then Military would need their own, Lawyers would need their own, Carpenters, Doctors, etc. It's a needless addition that only perpetuates the problem.

Looking back at Techres's analogy... this is Fenway's table. It's not his problem if his guests don't like each other... but it BECOMES his problem when people fight over the last turkey breast (read: winning the argument).

If you're going to argue about it over the internet, you're obviously not addressing the real problem and at the end of the day, you've expelled all of this energy, accomplished nothing, and more than likely made yourself look like an ass.

People will believe what they believe, whether you agree with them or not. You can't change that with a forum post or a slew of posts. The best thing you can do is let it flow off your back like water because if it won't mean anything 5 years from now, It won't mean anything 5 minutes from now.

Thicker skin? Over on aisle 5. Next.

 

[theweakerbrother]

I will gladly offer my services of telling people "It's not your fault" several times and then hugging it out.

You must provide the sweater.

 

[LotsofGlocks]

There is no way to resolve the issue with LEO bashing. To many feelings from both sides! Just make a Zero Tolerance policy ends it from both ends!

 

[88GT]

I've read/skimmed through the 120+ postss and not once did someone define "bashing." Because I know damn good and well that there are people who think any comment that casts LE in a negative light or is critical of LE policies, specific or general, consider it bashing.

I can think of only 2 members that I would say can honestly carry the mantle of cop-hater. Without exception, every other person who weighs in against LE does so from the standpoint that the methods, policies, regulations, and behaviors that are becoming the norm are dangerous to the freedom of the individual. It takes some intellectual honesty on the part of our LE members to recognize that while this is a criticism applied to LE in general precisely because it is NOT limited to one department, city, state, or area of the country, it is NOT an indictment of all law enforcement OFFICERS. If we who keep a critical eye on those who have the power over us can make the distinction, why can't they?

I'm a Realtor, and I will condemn the national housing industry up one side and down the other, including my own trade organization, NAR, for their anti-freedom and excessively regulatory approach to housing issues. But am I condemning each and every Realtor, lender, appraiser, and home inspector that is a part of my industry? No. That would be stupid. The average player isn't responsible for the decisions that led to the crisis. Why would I blame them?

In the same vein, the average beat cop, detective, or whatever isn't responsible for the policies that give free rein to LE to shoot first and ask questions later, administer take-downs so violent that it puts a man in a coma, etc. So when I criticize these policies, I'm criticizing the policies. And when I criticize the men who do it (because let's face it, there's no justification in an action merely because no rule exists that says you can't), I'm criticizing ONLY the men who do it. If you're a LEO who doesn't abuse the rights of the people because the courts have said you could, then those criticisms clearly don't apply to you.

Now, to keep this post on target: until you define bashing and control it within that specific definition, you will have no solution.

 

[christman]

I think I have settled with the thought process that there is obviously merit to some cop bashing threads and the viewpoints of these people are never going to go away because new instance keep popping up to give them more ammo to spew.

So, it seems to me that its gonna have to be one of those things where you either have to ban it altogether, or just let it be. Get some members to step up and post more good cop stories than the bad ones that come up.

Its just like anything though...I'm looking on CNN right now and out of the 10 stories,9 are negative.

People love to hate. Unfortunately...


As far as cops not coming to INGO and sticking around..I don't know what to say, most have thick enough skin to understand that the same rules apply to members here. The bad members get the press and bark the loudest sometimes. They just gotta look past those toolshed's and only give merit to the good guys here that aren't trolls.

With a politics/law section though its really hard to not have gun people who love their rights to not come in and post about those they feel violate them on occasion.

 

[techres]

To be clear,

The only solution is to tell one guest to get a thick skin or GTFO because the other guest cannot find any way to make a point without being polite or troll like focused on another person's profession and calling?

So, back to my thanksgiving table analogy, the only solution to let the rude loudmouth determine who comes back next year? That's not a choice that most normal people would make.

Most people would ask for a bit of polite courtesy or for the rude one to go...

Funny thing, some people like the bashing, but most do not. It is neither convincing nor becoming, and all it does is preach to a choir.

 

[Mike_Indy]

Getting people together is normally a good idea. That said, I doubt that the FEW officers that really mess it up for those that don't likely would not attend such a meeting. (IMHO)
On the other side, I suspect that those that choose to trash LEOs at every opportunity would welcome a chance to mouth off to a group of LEOs. This would cast bad light on the majority of INGO members that are not represented by their choice to despise LEOs by default.

That said, I'm not sure if it will work toward fixing a problem. No Que, I don't have a better idea yet. (Except, make it outdoors and add a shooting competition to it... Loser cooks.)

 

[christman]

To be clear,

It is next to impossible to fairly judge each person's post that revolves around cops to decide whether action should be taken. It will only lead to further division and spent anguish throughout the member community.

While it would be great if people would always be courteous and polite, this is the interwebz and it will never happen.

If something is to be done:

I think Que's suggestion of +1, -1 separate LEO forums is feasible, but will eventually have people warned/banned for breaking rules. Then people will complain for both sides.

I think just banning all leo talk altogether would be a great idea because then no one would get their feelings hurt. But then, someone will say something that will get them kicked/banned and people will complain for both sides.

IMHO at this point, using the "thick skin" idea, is the best option I suppose as long as people observe the INGO rules already set in place while posting. Why get so butthurt over someone hating someone in your profession? They aren't worth the time of day to send a rebuttal in those cases.

 

[MinuteMan47]

How about we have an Ultimate US vs THEM shoot off...

When we show up to the range one side will be labeled "US"...the other side "THEM".




I bet there will be more shooters on the "US" Team.

 

[christman]

How about we have an Ultimate US vs THEM shoot off...

When we show up to the range one side will be labeled "US"...the other side "THEM".




I bet there will be more shooters on the "US" Team.

I just sit back and sell tshirts.

 

[DHolder]

When LEO's have policed themselves to the point they are acutally LEO's, and NOT LAISI ( Law as I See It ) without the double standards we so often see, there will be bashing. I personaly am not a hater, but, I hold little if any respect for the man behind the badge. Once upon a time, you called the police to help, and they would come to your aid. Now, if you call a officer shows up, and treats you like you are a criminal for interupting their day. They come up with excuses that they cant do anything because they " didnt see a crime happen".
End of my rant, if they dont want to be bashed, then hold themselves accountable. If you take your car to a shop to have it worked on, and they dont do the job right you have every right to bash the shop, if they dont want bashed, do a better job.

 

[UncleMike]

When LEO's have policed themselves to the point they are acutally LEO's, and NOT LAISI ( Law as I See It ) without the double standards we so often see, there will be bashing. I personaly am not a hater, but, I hold little if any respect for the man behind the badge. Once upon a time, you called the police to help, and they would come to your aid. Now, if you call a officer shows up, and treats you like you are a criminal for interupting their day. They come up with excuses that they cant do anything because they " didnt see a crime happen".
End of my rant, if they dont want to be bashed, then hold themselves accountable. If you take your car to a shop to have it worked on, and they dont do the job right you have every right to bash the shop, if they dont want bashed, do a better job.

Wow!
Talk about making my point.
You make the claim that you're not a hater, then promptly proceed to say that you don't respect any LEO's and bash them by painting all LEO's with the "broad brush of hate."
Thanks for your helpful suggestion to resolve the issue at hand here.

 

[japartridge]

That's the point. Sometimes i'm off my game and I can't alway's hang with the heavy hitters here on certain topics so I make my point and know when to get out and move on to something else. No skiin off my back.

And I understand that... I'm all for the "if you don't like it, don't look at it" school of thought. I don't like the idea of any censorship, this is the Internet for Christ's sake, if I can't voice my un-filtered opinion here, then I know I'm ready for the dirt nap!!!

 

[jsharmon7]

When LEO's have policed themselves to the point they are acutally LEO's, and NOT LAISI ( Law as I See It ) without the double standards we so often see, there will be bashing. I personaly am not a hater, but, I hold little if any respect for the man behind the badge. Once upon a time, you called the police to help, and they would come to your aid. Now, if you call a officer shows up, and treats you like you are a criminal for interupting their day. They come up with excuses that they cant do anything because they " didnt see a crime happen".
End of my rant, if they dont want to be bashed, then hold themselves accountable. If you take your car to a shop to have it worked on, and they dont do the job right you have every right to bash the shop, if they dont want bashed, do a better job.

Dholder, you know I have all the respect in the world for you and consider you a friend. I just have to say that I disagree here though. I don't doubt if you've had bad experiences with officers with bad attitudes, but it just doesn't mean that any of us you call will treat you that way. I also don't doubt that you've had officers tell you there's nothing they can do about an issue you've called about. Believe me when I say that it happens sometimes that we really can't help you because the way the law is written and applied. I hate telling people that there's nothing I can do about their problem but I don't know of a better way to say it. I just hope you can understand that not every officer out there is doing a bad job or think they don't need to be held accountable for their actions.

My final thought on this thread is that Que's idea seems to be the best so far. I will not be trying to present "the other side" in any future LEO threads. To that end, I don't really care what Fenway or the mods decide to do to curb the bashing because I'm not getting involved anymore. No offense to any person or to this site, I just think it's the best option.

 

[mrjarrell]

I'm with 88GT here. I have yet to see a definition of "bashing". Is any article posted about cops that shows negative behaviour on their part bashing? Are articles on cops overstepping the boundaries of law, rights and ethics "bashing"? What I'm getting is that any article that looks at cops with a critical eye is "bashing". I don't see that as being the case. IF someone goes after one of the INGO cops and actually "bashed" them, I bet most of us would have an issue with that. Mainly because the few INGO cops who actually participate are seemingly pretty good guys. Denny, PS, Frank, JSharmon, Liberty and Kutnupe seem to be pretty stand up guys, by all accounts. Others who've posted...some others not so much, but it's been rare for me to see someone going after them. Most cop posts are about egregious behaviour of an empowered segment of our government. One with, literally, the power of life and death over the average Joe and Jane. Is pointing out "isolated incidents" bashing now? Let's at least have a definition before we go anywhere.

 

[Benny]

I personaly am not a hater, but, I hold little if any respect for the man behind the badge.

You most certainly could have fooled me.

 

[goinggreyfast]

IMO Keeping ALL discussions civil would go a long way to improve the discourse between "Us and Them" Eliminating blanket statements such as "And the Cops wonder why no one trusts/respects/likes/tolerates/etc, them." or, "They all stick up for each other no matter what laws they break." would be a good start.

THANK YOU!

Following quote taken from: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...nocent_person_arrested_again.html#post1964555

They should fire every officer on the department, jail the people who identified the innocent kid from the video and burn the police department HQ to the ground.

Was this supposed to be in purple??? I would certainly hope so!!!


Possible solutions? There has been a lot of talk in this thread about inacting policy based on the lowest common denominator (an obvious few rather than a majority). There has also been talk about newbies, (probably some who are not so new too) and LEO's who either won't post or won't join because they are "apprehensive" (for lack of better term) about people who are not civil and respectful in their dealings with others. This should not be.

Rather than allow policy to be based on the lowest common denominator because a select few, we all know that peer pressure can go a long way. I would suggest that WHEN offensive individuals are being offensive, call them out on it. If they don't respond and "play well" with others, block them en masse. I think this logic leans more towards what our good friend Que suggested.

The common thread to my here is RESPECT. Show it and you will get it in return. Don't show it and get blocked by your peers. Be a total a** and then the Mods will do their job and Moderate.

I for one would hate it if Fenway would remove all of the non-gun related threads. I get a lot of good news and information from them. Honestly, this is the only online blog that I subscribe to for that very reason.

Thank you for your time. Have a nice day!

 

[rhino]

I've read/skimmed through the 120+ postss and not once did someone define "bashing." Because I know damn good and well that there are people who think any comment that casts LE in a negative light or is critical of LE policies, specific or general, consider it bashing.

This is an excellent point. I submit that any remotely objective definition will offend one side of this.

Here are some other thoughts.

First, when you single out one group because they're being "bashed," whether it's really happening or not, the ultimate result is going to be greater division and an increase in the us vs. them mentality. In my opinion, a much better idea would be to have a community standard for all interaction regardless of status or occupation. That's a pipe dream, but if I had a forum such as this, that would be my goal.

Second, we have to consider some facts that may not yield any feel-good results. The governments on all levels in this country have gotten so far out of hand that we're getting close to a tipping point. Which way it will go is another debate. The reality is, we have too much government and those govenrment entities encroach too deeply into too many areas of all of our lives. This is a reality that many (probably most) people who are gun owners and participants on this forum see it. If you can accept this premise, a certain amount of antipathy toward government is to be expected. As things get worse or at least the perception worsens, that antipathy grows.

Given that, police officers, whether local, state, or their federal counterparts are agents of those governments. This is by their own choosing. I am not arguing the necessity or lack thereof of people doing most of these jobs. I'm simply stating that they've chose to represent entities that we (most of us) perceive to be contrary to how we wish to live our lives. It's natural and expected that at least some of that antipathy toward illicit authority will trickle down to those who are on the delivery end of the government's stick.

(Of course, whose fault is it that our government has grown out of control? Pretty much everyone who has voted for people who have acted badly in legilative roles as well as people who have failed to vote. We're all ultimately responsible whether we acted badly or not because it's our country.)

I don't think genuine "bashing" is really a problem here with a few exceptions, but then this isn't my forum. I think that what is perceived to be "bashing" by some are expressions of displeasure with the government in general. Think of the real "bashing" that happens with respect to some politicians on here. Whether it's deserved or not, it's a lot worse than a vast majority of what is said about police officers, if not about specific actions by those who are police officer. Why does no one ask how we can stop that bashing? It's because we recognize that they're part of the machine that is harming us every day. Even if most police officers do nothing but good, they and their actions will always be judged through a filter that makes the connection to the government. When the actions of bad people with badges do real harm, it's going to besmirch all of them, as has been mentioned a few times already.

But I could be wrong.

 

[level.eleven]

There is no substitute, no magic bullet, to replace active moderation. One tip used by larger forums with multiple subforums is to assign mods to a single subforum. Warn and ban as they see fit. The "blanket statement" line is also a non-starter. It's human nature to group people. How would a politician feel if he visited some of the subforums? Teachers? Union members? The top thread in the GF forum right now is a thread comparing union workers to a Ruger recall. They don't work and you can't fire them.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Unfortunately many of the "INGO Cops" don't visit the site any more simply because of the negative posts.
Some do still read posts here but would rather be kicked in the groin than make a post and get flamed by the persistent Cop haters.
I've asked LEO friends to join here but after reading some of the anti LEO threads they've told me "No way."
It's human nature to avoid unpleasant places.

I don't know that there are actually any "COP HATERS" on here!
Sure there are plenty of situations, stories, posts, that may shed a negative light on some l.e.... Some just, and I'm sure some unjust! Big deal!
just because someone posts something negative, doesn't necessarily make it hateful, and even if it is... So what!?!
I've been insulted on here before! Guess what I did? Just left that thread and moved on to the next! Anyone that is uncomfortable or insulted can easily do the same!
Your never going to be able to bring 14,000 people together in one place, and not have some disturbances and disagreements! Not in an Internet forum, church, school, business, etc. I've even seen fights at a Grateful Dead concert!!!
We are human, and our differences are what makes us GREAT!!!!!


Fenway... Let everyone express their opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Set up separate threads for posts specifically involving cops if you want, also threads for discussions about religion, racial discrimination, etc... Anything else that you may term "offensive" to certain members.... That way, those members know if they don't want to be involved in those discussions, they simply stay out of those threads..... Seems simple to me, unless I'm missing something.