Using bow in backyard leads to house seizure

[dross]

Why? Because I'm not so simple-minded that I can look at and render judgment based upon the evidence of each situation independently? Because I can say in this situation with these circumstances the actions taken are right where in a different situation with a different set of circumstances the actions were wrong? Because I don't squarely fall in the I love cops or I hate cops camp? Because I'm capable of critical thinking?

Just a bit of gentle teasing, my friend, noting that I often find you on the other side of an issue like this.

I never doubted that you have the ability to view situations on their individual merits. In fact, I suspect many of your positions to be more on the contrarian side than an exact representation of your position.

 

[88GT]

On topic: I haven't yet had a chance to watch the videos, and I couldn't discern a clarification from the responses. When I first read the title, I took it as the homeowners lost ownership of the property. When the word "seized" is used, it's not used in the "take legal possession/ownership" manner, is it? But rather temporary "possession" for the sake of investigation? Because I can't imagine ownership could so easily be assumed.

But assuming for the sake of argument that it's the "temporary possession," I think it's incredibly wrong, but not outside the ways the laws are written. Just a back-door attempt to circumvent 4th amendment protections. (Similar to the issues I have with probable cause.)

Please forgive the off the subject rant Ladies and Gentlemen.
**snip**

Rant is done.

M

I think you read way to much into the comment that precipitated this pile of inflammatory garbage, Mr. Pot. Regardless, let me clarify something. LE is not held to a higher standard because of the stressful, unforgiving nature of the job. LE is held to a higher standard because of the power and authority inherent to their positions.




Warning, the following is blatant

Child safety, endangerment, abuse, etc is often just an easy way around a warrant that they may not be able to get. It's like a "foot in the door" so to speak. CPS sends an investigator out with a LEO and they don't need warrants.

Uhh, yes they do need warrants. CPS is not above the fourth amendment. Even with a LEO at your door, a CPS worker does not have to be admitted to your home. Don't spread false information.

Good luck with that.

Since I just did a fair amount in investigation into this...

1. CPS cannot enter a home without consent unless it can show exigent circumstances. Those are specifically defined. And, no, mere claims of abuse are not sufficient to meet the standard of "exigent" circumstances. Neither is refusal of entry. There has to be some level of evidence or proof. (Strictly speaking anyway. The practical application is that in CPS investigations, refusal of entry is the equivalent of guilty until proven innocent based on the "you must have something to hide." That alone has been used to justify exigent circumstances where none really existed. I'm not familiar wit too many Indiana cases, but nationally, there's a pretty even split in the courts between granting too much leeway to CPS and actually honoring the rights of the parents.)

2. CPS may not gain entry through the coercive presence of LE without consent, exigent circumstances, or a warrant.

3. Yes, CPS may question a child in a school without the parents' permission or knowledge. School administrators/teachers cannot refuse.

4. CPS is also extremely manipulative once it has gained accessed to the home/children. If you ever find yourself the object of CPS investigation, based on my own research, the following is a minimum course of action.

• Deny initial entry, but not refusal to cooperate. Offer to "meet them halfway" with a scheduled appointment visit no less than 4-5 into the future.
• During those 4-5 days, seek a third party witness to be present at the interrogation.
• Refuse to allow your children to be questioned outside of your presence. Audio/video record the entire interrogation.
• Provide only what the law requires you to provide. Offer up nothing more. (Most of the CPS cases I encounter of late deal with educational neglect claims against homeschooling families. So this one is particularly important because homeschooling families are required to provide an attendance record and nothing more.) By offering up information you are not required to reveal, you open the door to manipulation of the information for their own purposes.
• Do not answer questions they have no business asking...like what the religious affiliation of the mother's boyfriend is. Yes, CPS actually asked that.

And as always, seek the advice of a lawyer before you do anything. But that sort of goes without saying anymore....I hope.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic....

 

[.40caltrucker]

Finally got to watch the video.

If I was his neighbor I would have called also, he lives in a trailer park and his whole backdrop behind his target was another trailer no matter which direction he was shooting from.

It's pretty obvious this guy is an idiot. I can only imagine what stupidity he tried to pull on the responding offices that got him tackled and arrested.

Only an idiot would try to resist when an officer is trying to either issue a citation or arrest you. Let them issue it or arrest ya then fight it in court, BUT DON'T RESIST.

 

[rambone]

On topic: I haven't yet had a chance to watch the videos, and I couldn't discern a clarification from the responses. When I first read the title, I took it as the homeowners lost ownership of the property. When the word "seized" is used, it's not used in the "take legal possession/ownership" manner, is it? But rather temporary "possession" for the sake of investigation? Because I can't imagine ownership could so easily be assumed.

But assuming for the sake of argument that it's the "temporary possession," I think it's incredibly wrong, but not outside the ways the laws are written. Just a back-door attempt to circumvent 4th amendment protections. (Similar to the issues I have with probable cause.)

I used that word "seized" because that is what the man with the badge said. I've never really read about a case quite like this so I don't know if his terminology was wrong or if he was just flat wrong about the whole thing. A lot definitely seemed wrong with it to me.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Regardless, and speaking only from personal experience.. I found it more and more difficult to maintain my military composure the more domestic disturbances I responded to.

Rant is done.

M

I think that is part of the problem. too many times police think they are like the military. the citizens dont want soldiers patroling our streets. we want compassionate fellow citizens that show emotions so we know your human and not a robot. if it becomes too much to handle then maybe its time to find a new job in public service or elsewhere (although everytime I say this i get flamed by the cops. i guess some think its their right to stay as cops even if they have wigged out and staled?)

thats why we have police and not the army. believe me, you wouldnt want a Ranger pulling your ass out of the car for a traffic stop or arresting you for beating your wife. you might end up with some eggs on your dome or worse. soldiers fight wars for a reason, they are not domestic police.

police are social (or are supposed to be) beings. they are supposed to have emotions. I dont wanna deal with a cop who has "flipped the switch" on his emotions.

cry a little, it might help you cope. i have seen some **** too man, so im just trying to help.

maybe cops need "term limits" ???

 

[Denny347]

In cases like these we OFTEN learn how frequently they "malfunction".Actually, we MUST assume EXACTLY that due to the fact that this is the USA and we are presumed INNOCENT until proven guilty.

Unless you make the news then public opinion is guilty and they needs to prove themselves innocent.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Unless you make the news then public opinion is guilty and they needs to prove themselves innocent.

thats the way I've been made to feel on a traffic stop (years ago). I just wanted to say "calm down officer, its 5 miles over the limit, i will pay your fine, but dont treat me like im a murderer, ass bag."

 

[Denny347]

I think that is part of the problem. too many times police think they are like the military. the citizens dont want soldiers patroling our streets. we want compassionate fellow citizens that show emotions so we know your human and not a robot. if it becomes too much to handle then maybe its time to find a new job in public service or elsewhere (although everytime I say this i get flamed by the cops. i guess some think its their right to stay as cops even if they have wigged out and staled?)

thats why we have police and not the army. believe me, you wouldnt want a Ranger pulling your ass out of the car for a traffic stop or arresting you for beating your wife. you might end up with some eggs on your dome or worse. soldiers fight wars for a reason, they are not domestic police.

police are social (or are supposed to be) beings. they are supposed to have emotions. I dont wanna deal with a cop who has "flipped the switch" on his emotions.

cry a little, it might help you cope. i have seen some **** too man, so im just trying to help.

Well yes and no. I have yet to see anyone "pretend" or "wish" we were in the armed forces. What we have is a profession that follows many of the military philosophies and structure. We have chain of command, ranks, formal dress codes, etc. I will say that the biggest regret I have in my life is NOT joining the military after highschool. Rather I went straight into college and screwed away my first year...I know I would have been great in the military. I have the utmost respect for those that did choose, man I wish I had done so. However, if I was away, I would not likely have met my wife and 17yrs later would not still be with her and have 2 great kids...so it worked out great anyway. However, the lack of emotions seen by the public in not a result of "military" behavior. It is self preservation. You CANNOT get emotionally involved in this job. You will be happier and live longer if you detach yourself from the misery seen everyday. Sure, you can be friendly and smile when it helps, but some people have a hard time going back and fourth. I am not soldier and I will not pretend to know what it is like in an active combat. However, as a LEO, I have seen more death and misery most of my fellow citizens will EVER see. I know what the inside of a man's skull looks like when he shoots himself point blank...looking into the bullet wound, I know that a body looks like after hanging in a tree and what gravity does to it. I found a body in the street that I could not tell what she looked like because her boyfriend kicked her so badly in the face...breaking all the bones in her skull. How about working this Christmas morning and hoping to see my kids open their gifts but NO!!! I have to go to a double homicide between 2 hispanics, one stabbed the other...all over a woman. I FOUND the woman after she hung herself from the shower head...with kids sleeping in the next room. She was too upset about the stabbing. I had to shield the kids as I walked them out since the dead guy was on the front porch of the building and there was more blood than a horror movie. It was on every wall and ran down the front porch, covering it. How about the homicide pulled up on with the husband standing on the front porch waiting for us. Inside I had to clear the house only to find that said husband had shot her while she laid on the couch sit with the flu. It was a nasty mess in there. How about the home invasion I was the first to respond to. Searching the house I found the female victim shot on the floor. She was alive and I was the last person with her while she was alive...she died there. Or the woman that was shot though the head that I rode in the ambulance to the hospital. She was still alive but I was talking to her not expecting her to survive...she did but her boyfriend we found with her did not. I have forgotten so much more. I cannot tell you how much death, despair, filth, misery I have seen in 13yrs. That's ok though. I did choose this profession and would not trade it for the world. However, I have yet to lose a minutes sleep because I do NOT get emotionally involved. It may seem cold but I cannot be an effective officer if I have emotional scars I am dealing with. Now let my 6yr old daughter get her tonsils removed and I was an emotional wreck...Mr. Toughguy was a sobbing mess. If it is not my family, I turn on my "Police" mode...allowing me to do my job. However, some turn to alcohol or other destructive behaviors to cope and it ALWAYS goes baddly and will end up on the news. I am not alone in this, we as a group deal with this stuff in similar ways and most of us do a good job with it. Little of it has anything to do with militarization.

 

[Denny347]

thats the way I've been made to feel on a traffic stop (years ago). I just wanted to say "calm down officer, its 5 miles over the limit, i will pay your fine, but dont treat me like im a murderer, ass bag."

Ha, I am usually very friendly on traffic stops. The only thing that gets me pissed is how drivers disregard me as I direct traffic. OMG I will yell and curse at them as they drive around my lit up patrol car, blocking all the travel lane, thing that it does not ally to them.....

 

[96firephoenix]

might be in the minority here, but I don't see that the cops are the initial bad guys here. this guy did something illegal whether he knew it or not. the cops were called on the illegal activity and a scuffle ensued and 2 officers were injured. obviously they need to find out what all went down. when officers call for backup, they should get it.

however when someone says "you can not seize my house without a warrant." "yes, yes we can" is not an acceptable response.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

however when someone says "you can not seize my house without a warrant." "yes, yes we can" is not an acceptable response.

Well sure it is...."I've got a gun and a bunch of friends here with guns, I can do whatever I want....Oh and I've got a badge too".

 

[dross]

Ha, I am usually very friendly on traffic stops. The only thing that gets me pissed is how drivers disregard me as I direct traffic. OMG I will yell and curse at them as they drive around my lit up patrol car, blocking all the travel lane, thing that it does not ally to them.....

Not saying this applies to you, but I've come upon officers gesturing attempting to direct traffic, and I can't figure out what they're trying to communicate. I remember not too long ago turning to my wife and asking, "Do you know what he wants them to do?" By the time I got up there I was able to figure it out, but his gestures seemed sort of frantic and ambiguous, and he was getting angry at the people not following his directions.

 

[E5RANGER375]

well Denny, I agree with the emotional detachment part. the problem is, I dont think you ever get it back fully. I know i haven't. I think i could watch it happen right in front of me and not even blink still. im with you though on the father daughter thing. i melt like butter when it comes to my daughter. i've felt like mister sissy pants, lol.
I think the biggest reason i chose not to be a cop is because I dislike the majority of people. I know that I could not perform like I should. I would be on the 6 oclock news for ***** slapping some reporter probly.

I dont care if the emotion is fake from a cop, i just want them to be courteous. As you know, I dont just immediately trust any cop I dont know, even though I am not and have NEVER been a criminal. but I am still courteous when I make eye contact with one. i will nod my head, or smile. I dont do it to kiss ass, i do it because I do appreciate them for what they do when they do it right. i dont even nod or smile at other citizens, so that should tell you i do have respect for leo's.

I would just smash the **** out of someones car if they went around my road block have a nice day deusch bag, enjoy your new quarter pannel

 

[warangelcometh]

WOW!! This is extremely disturbing. How would those officers like it if the shoe were on the other foot and their wife and child was being abused like this? These cops should be ashamed of themselves!!!

 

[MattYagPD01]

!

nvm

 

[rhart]

Ok, I'll make myself a target here

I only watched the video once, but I didnt see a safe backstop. Seriously, would you want the guy behind you shooting a bow towards your house if you had kids without a decent backstop? Or even with one for that matter. I've been shooting bows for 33 years and I have to be honest, every now and then I let one fly right over my whole backstop. It happens. I dont really think a trailer park is the best place to be shooting anything.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I dont really think a trailer park is the best place to be shooting anything.

I can think of a few things to shoot that are predominantly found in trailer parks.....

 

[rambone]

I only watched the video once, but I didnt see a safe backstop. Seriously, would you want the guy behind you shooting a bow towards your house if you had kids without a decent backstop? Or even with one for that matter. I've been shooting bows for 33 years and I have to be honest, every now and then I let one fly right over my whole backstop. It happens. I dont really think a trailer park is the best place to be shooting anything.

I don't believe the video even shows the area where he was shooting, behind the house. I think it all depends on the setup. He could have been pointing back toward the woods for all we know. I am against having an ordinance restricting everyone from using a bow. As I said before, in my area they have an ordinance that says you have to have 10 acres or more to shoot a bow, which is totally stupid and restrictive of people's right to use their land. I am fine with punishing/fining somebody who puts an arrow into somebody else's stuff. The responsibility should be on the shooter to ensure an appropriate direction to shoot in.

 

[.40caltrucker]

I don't believe the video even shows the area where he was shooting.

I read somewhere he was shooting at the scarecrow. If that's true in the 1st video she shows the yard at the end and there is no safe direction to shoot that scarecrow from.

I am against having an ordinance restricting everyone from using a bow.

What if there is a playground directly behind his house and he doesn't use any thing to stop his arrow if he misses? Like it or not we are a nation of laws. Granted some are stupid and needless but with out laws, well you know....

As I said before, in my area they have an ordinance that says you have to have 10 acres or more to shoot a bow, which is totally stupid and restrictive of people's right to use their land.

Agree an acre restriction is stupid, but city vs country are 2 different places and scenarios.

I am fine with punishing/fining somebody who puts an arrow into somebody else's stuff. The responsibility should be on the shooter to ensure an appropriate direction to shoot in.

You can't fine someone for putting an arrow into someone else's stuff with out a law or ordinance, forbidding it or regulating it.

 

[rambone]

You can't fine someone for putting an arrow into someone else's stuff with out a law or ordinance, forbidding it or regulating it.

It essentially becomes an issue of damaged property over negligence. Doesn't mean we have to punish responsible people.