USPSA at ACC 4-27-2014

[Rob377]

If you can't handle it, let me know.

PM me the address. I'll drop the program disc in the mail.

It's a sweet gig. The pay is awesome and everyone picks up your brass while you try to get scores up in timely fashion, so there's less bending over and all that. It's even better with paper, because you get to spend Sunday evening deciphering hieroglyphics, figuring out how a 32 round stage can have 30 or 38 hits marked (if they were even totaled in the first place), and doing fun addition problems. Those aren't mistakes, they're puzzles!






I don't find the devices hard to read at all, though.

 

[Rob377]

I didn't make it. I have excuses. None of them good. No blondes, No brunettes, no good stories.

I'm withholding the Kindle comments.

Do you even USPSA, bro?

 

[downrange72]

Do you even USPSA, bro?

I really don't have anything..just a 6:00 a.m. to 2a.m. day. Couldn't roll out of bed. LOL

 

[Rob377]

I really don't have anything..just a 6:00 a.m. to 2a.m. day. Couldn't roll out of bed. LOL

Sleep before a match is over-rated.

 

[Cowboy1629]

You are more then welcome to look at the Kindle and record results on paper for backup

That's how they are doing the scoring for Level II and III matches.

Progress takes a bit of learning. In the long run, Practiscore is well worth the investment.

Edit: Paper backup can also help catch errors. If you ask, there are several people willing to help you learn how to operate Practiscore.

This started out with me stating there was an error in my score and knowing the first response I would receive is that it is my responsibility to review my score I stated it wasn't as easy to do that on the Kindle as it is on paper since you can't see it well in the sunlight and we are trying to keep the match moving by bringing up the next shooter in the system. It's not easy for us inexperienced people to back it up to the past shooter for review in the system when you aren't sure how to do it. After making that statement it automatically becomes you do the score sheets if you don't like it.

I agree this is new technology but it's only as good as we make it. Maybe we could get in the habit of reading the scores out to the shooter before advancing to the next one. At the very least we should be reviewing any recorded misses or penalties with the shooter so it can be challenged at that time.

I guess the other alternative is to just not say anything but if that's the case how could we improve.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, just pointing out an observation.

 

[CB45]

This started out with me stating there was an error in my score and knowing the first response I would receive is that it is my responsibility to review my score I stated it wasn't as easy to do that on the Kindle as it is on paper since you can't see it well in the sunlight and we are trying to keep the match moving by bringing up the next shooter in the system. It's not easy for us inexperienced people to back it up to the past shooter for review in the system when you aren't sure how to do it. After making that statement it automatically becomes you do the score sheets if you don't like it.

I agree this is new technology but it's only as good as we make it. Maybe we could get in the habit of reading the scores out to the shooter before advancing to the next one. At the very least we should be reviewing any recorded misses or penalties with the shooter so it can be challenged at that time.

I guess the other alternative is to just not say anything but if that's the case how could we improve.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, just pointing out an observation.

I really like having a paper backup of my results. I usually record the points, penalties, and stage time. It takes very little time, a there is a summary page in Practiscore. I have never been denied the opportunity to look at a Kindle/IPad to look at my stage results. Its just as time consuming to flip through 16 score sheets to review the stage results.

 

[Rob377]

This started out with me stating there was an error in my score and knowing the first response I would receive is that it is my responsibility to review my score I stated it wasn't as easy to do that on the Kindle as it is on paper since you can't see it well in the sunlight and we are trying to keep the match moving by bringing up the next shooter in the system. It's not easy for us inexperienced people to back it up to the past shooter for review in the system when you aren't sure how to do it. After making that statement it automatically becomes you do the score sheets if you don't like it.

I agree this is new technology but it's only as good as we make it. Maybe we could get in the habit of reading the scores out to the shooter before advancing to the next one. At the very least we should be reviewing any recorded misses or penalties with the shooter so it can be challenged at that time.

I guess the other alternative is to just not say anything but if that's the case how could we improve.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, just pointing out an observation.

When I was running the device, I asked each shooter if they wanted to take a look at the results. Very few took me up on it.

If your eyesight is such that the screens are more difficult to read, I don't know ANYONE who would refuse a request to read them off for you. I certainly wouldn't, and I'm told I'm the biggest a-hole around. So there's that.

There shouldn't be an issue with keeping things moving, because all the time the scorekeeper use to spend tallying hits is now free time with these devices. The score is done and ready for the shooter to review before half the targets are even pasted!

Moreover, I came out to that squad a couple times to help with the device. At any time, it would've been easy to ask "Hey Rob, how to we back up to show a shooter their score after we've saved it?" I was walking squad to squad backing up scores throughout the day, and it would've been equally easy to ask then as well. But no one did. For the record, it's super easy ( just a couple clicks) and I'll happily show anyone that would like to see.


Constructive criticism is always welcome. But the "paper scores are so awesome and never fail" shtick isn't especially constructive.

 

[amboy49]

My second year of USPSA. Things learned and improvements made or to be made: Changed the striker spring back to the factory spring in my Springfield Armory 5.25 after multiple FTF. Fixed the problem. No FTF's today. I'm beginning to be able to shoot faster - but accuracy somethimes suffers. Had three mikes today including one target that was three yards away. How you say - point the gun without looking at the sights doesn't work. Hit the hard cover section of the target - out of the alpha by 1/2" or less. 8;( Continue to watch the better shooters and learn. Also watched the better shooters sometimes make a bonehead move and discover anyone can screw up ! All in all have worked my way all the way up to just below average ! ! Again, a very good time shooting with nice folks at a good range with a well run program. Oh, did I mention - I HATE the poppers and I REALLY hate the plate rack !

 

[sv40sw45]

Good match Dan and Crew. I really like the small stone on the Bays, BIG IMPROVMENT. South Central will have this done in the very near future.
It would be nice if everyone would take their turn scoring on the Kindles so we all would learn how it's done. Most matches you have 1or 2 shooters per squad who do all the scoring.

 

[Friction]

I notice that when someone on a forum asks how to upload a picture no one ever launches into rant about how much easier it would be for them to just go get 100 prints made and mail them to everyone. Instead, unless they are just being A$$, they point the OP to a picture hosting site and provide some instructions. Likewise, when guys post YouTube videos no one complains that YouTube isn't compatible with their Betamax so it must suck. For that matter, how many guys that use this very message board ever used the original Internet message boards in the late 90's when they looked like lines of code and were unsearchable. How many people are reading this post on an Ipad or smart phone and thinking that it would be better if it was written in a monthly news letter that's mailed to them?

The current programs and hardware have their flaws and quirks but with valid feedback, information sharing, and TRAINING they can be effective. I talked Robs ear off today trying to learn how to use the system because as it stands I was THE WEEK LINK since I didn't know how to use it to its current potential. If everyone commits some time to learning how to use them the proccess should improve in direct proportion to everyones effort.

Just my .02 but if occasional equipment failures were grounds to stop using new tech on the range the USPSA wouldn't allow any reactive targets, red dots, or any variant of a 1911s or XDs in competition.

Thanks to Rob and the other guys for setting up another solid event.

 

[Friction]

With regards to constructive feedback regarding the match today, I have the following observations.

As far as I know there were three significant errors with stage building that were all honest mistakes but easily detectable and correctable before the first shots were fired had the effort been made to validate the stages by the first shooters/RO's using them. My reccomendation for future matches is to include stage validation as a responsibility of the first RO's on each stage. Include the task in the shooters brief to have all RO's conduct a walk through of their assigned stage and confirm any subjective aspects of the stage design (I.e. disappearing targets, 180's, shoot through potentials, etc.) as well as validating the classifiers against the approved stage design. That generally happens anyway but briefing it as a specific task, instead of assuming it as an implied task, may help ID future mistakes before they effect anything.

 

[jakemartens]

First a big thank you to ACC crew for putting on the match and to Daniel and Rob and for everyone that let me shoot thru so could get back down to the NRA show and USPSA booth.
-Kindle scoring, practiscore, it is here to stay, and by the end of the year EZwin score (what we have used in the past) will no longer be around, so whether we want it or not practiscore is what USPSA will be using for scoring. It was designed to be used on tablets. There are huge advantages to this over paper, but there is a learning curve. I would recommend that Match Directors get with their dedicated group of volunteers maybe an hour before a match and go over the specifics on how to do some of the trouble shooting and I would also recommend that those people then when recruiting their squad dicuss at the beginning of the stage "everyone takes a turn" the more hands on the more people will learn. As for competitors if we want to review our score before they hit save then we need to walk our happy but over to them and take a look see, same as with paper, you should have looked before they moved to the next shooter.
-Things are going to get missed in match set, RO that are running a squad and MD's should review them before hand, but sometimes there isn't time, you never really know if you are going to have 30 people show up or 80+ and some juggling of people happens. This is where when more experience shooters that are RO's say "you should take an RO class, it will help you understand things better" comes into play. You will see things on a stage that may not be right, or may not be legal that has someone that hasn't ever looked at the rule book wouldn't know.
-MD's, each year turn out gets bigger, the more information that is out there, the more people are going to see what we have known for a long time, this **** is fun. Take advantage of new blood, do new shooter orientations, post information about your matches, round counts, classifiers, get RO's a head of time (did you know that you can set up matches now in practiscore and people can pre register before they even get to the match......)
-Also, and I know that I have said this before, if you are going to run 6 stages, and thing that you can run a single classifier stage before a field course and not have a back up you are wrong. You can run as many classifiers as you want now, stick two in a bay before a field course and get rid of the back ups (an people can get classified sooner)

[video=youtube_share;nAXKu7LPdrs]http://youtu.be/nAXKu7LPdrs[/video]

 

[Bosshoss]

Jake if the clubs run 2 classifiers do the clubs have to send activity fees for both?
This would cut into the clubs money intake. Maybe make the second one optional to send in for classification and if the shooter pays extra for it ahead of time it gets sent in. If they don't pay up front it doesn't count towards classification but just match score ?

 

[Rob377]

Jake if the clubs run 2 classifiers do the clubs have to send activity fees for both?
This would cut into the clubs money intake. Maybe make the second one optional to send in for classification and if the shooter pays extra for it ahead of time it gets sent in. If they don't pay up front it doesn't count towards classification but just match score ?

Yes, the activity fee doubles.

In the past, we've just used a speed shoot/short course in the same bay. In fact, that SHO/WHO stage started in the same bay because what Jake is saying about a classifier before a field course is true. We had to separate them because 87 shooters on 5 squads would've been a bit much. How's the saying go? The best laid plans of mice and men ... something something.


Having lots of people come out and play is a really good problem to have! I'm hoping we can find ways to accommodate without having to resort to capping how many people can enter like some clubs do.


and FWIW, online pre-registration is coming to ACC this season. It should give the Luddite Curmudgeons something new to complain about.

 

[mongo404]

I would like to thank all that helped with our match Set up crew, Tear down Crew, ROs Score Keepers, Registration, And Master Kindle Guru,

Lets see 87 Shooters, Record Attendance for ACC and Scores posted 1/2 hour after last shot fired Freaking Amazing!!!

To respond to an earlier post The disappearing swinger should have been caught on set up, True!

The 180 issue. It is almost impossible to take out all 180 issues out of a Match of any level. Shooters have to use their heads besides a place for a hat! If everyone wants to do away with 180 issues from a match I guess we can go back to stand and shoots and box to box stages.

Next match we will Note to have Shooters review their scores before saved...



Thanks
Daniel

 

[Friction]

To respond to an earlier post The disappearing swinger should have been caught on set up, True!

The 180 issue. It is almost impossible to take out all 180 issues out of a Match of any level. Shooters have to use their heads besides a place for a hat! If everyone wants to do away with 180 issues from a match I guess we can go back to stand and shoots and box to box stages.

Daniel

My comment was as follows "Include the task in the shooters brief to have all RO's conduct a walk through of their assigned stage and confirm any subjective aspects of the STAGE DESIGN (I.e. disappearing targets, 180's, shoot through potentials, etc.) as well as validating the classifiers against the approved stage design."

My comment was clearly about validation of fundamental stage design on any course of fire. Lateral movement is a part of the sport but ensuring that a stage does not have a design flaw which forces a safety concern or scoring issue should be part of validation. I didn't see any unsafe aspects of any of the stage designs at this event and I think creating unique challenges in a stage is what separates good stages from great stages. I mentioned it along with other concepts that should be understood as part of the initial walk through. Taking that comment, and its included examples, and reducing it to the statement "I guess we can go back to stand and shoots and box to box stages" is just as silly and seemingly emotionally biased as the arbitrary kindle complaints.

 

[amboy49]

Am wondering if the scores are available for viewing - and, if so, where ? Thanks in advance.

amboy49

 

[BillD]

I had a pretty good match, except for that farkin plate rack. A third, 3 fifths, one 6 and a farkin 16th place. It was a fun match, thanks Daniel and crew for the fun. Next time, I'll get a crash course on the Kindles. Sorry I had to DQ that guy before he fired a shot. I hate to DQ people.

And in all seriousness, if this sport really takes off due to our promotion of it, what are we going to do with 125 shooters at a club match? Are we going to run 20 person squads? Are we going to be on the range from 9 until 7 in the evening?
It's a question I haven't seen addressed.

 

[BillD]

Am wondering if the scores are available for viewing - and, if so, where ? Thanks in advance.

amboy49

Page 3 of this thread

Display Match Results - Detail Page - USPSA - United States Practical Shooting Association

 

[rvb]

Guys, it was a great match. Lots of little stuff getting more attention than deserved, some of which was just plain unusual (I've never seen a no-shoot w/o a scoring border... great, I have something else to worry about in stage setup now!). It's very hard to catch everything and think of every possible way shooter's will run a course. Even Level-2/3 matches that have lots of eyes on the design, setup, etc sometimes have issues.

This was my first time doing scores w/ a tablet vs paper. It was great! It helped us avoid a couple of mistakes (for instance, an RO called out too many hits on a target on the 'bill drill' stage; I knew not to enter the extra cause the line was already green, so we took another look). Piles of paper sucks on a day as windy as Sunday. I was able to spend more time watching the things the guy on the "clipboard" should be watching (watching for footfaults, REFs on plates, etc) instead of adding. Reshoots didn't result in crossed-off cluttered messes that the stats guy would have to later decipher. Shooting order changes didn't result in having to thumb through a pile of paper to find the right sheet and shuffle. HF is shown for everyone on your squad; you don't have to just look at time and guess or pull out the calculator to see right there if you beat your buddy. You didn't have to worry about the scoresheet being upside down and accidently writing scores in the wrong stage. Let's not forget scores for 85+shooters posted before I got home.

Tablet scoring is here to stay. More clubs are gearing up for it, and others will follow. You can make mountains out of the negative mole hills, but I'm focusing on the positives. Maybe we should go back to envelopes and postage to deliver scores, too, or are we at least content w/ email and on-line scores?

I'm sure everyone remembers the first time someone stabbed a clipboard in your hand and said to keep score. Pretty nerve racking not knowing what to write, how to handle penalties, making sure you write it on the right place, that sinking feeling you got when you wrote somethign in the wrong box. Well, we've got to go through some of that learning curve again w/ the tablets. Just like w/ learning to score on paper, if you do it a few times, it suddenly bcomes no big deal. As scorekeepers get used to working the tablets, showing someone their scores etc won't be a big deal.

The SW has room for improvement, and I suspect we'll eventually see positive changes (I'd like to be able to apply a DNF to all stages a competitor hasn't yet shot, and a protected sync mode that would let anyone on the squad sync off the squad tablet while ensuring data integrity on the official tablet, and a 'rotate' feature in the squad order that lets you move the guy who shot first to the end, and more).

BTW, w/ paper, I never tracked down the shooter at a Level-1 and asked them if they want to review their scores. If they want to look at it they come find me, preferably before we've moved on to the next shooter and I'm supposed to be paying attention to other things going on. There's no reason for that to change and start making a big deal out of reviewing scores now.

-rvb