USPSA rulebook discussion

[Grelber]

Rulebook 9.6.2. As long as the competitors are informed and there are delegates, it's legal.

Not what I would have guessed, but, clear enough.

I personally dont don't care for the "score keeper" scoring targets. There's time for that when the shooting is over. I'd rather they also do the other RO tasks such as watch for safety violations, penalties, etc. and I've seen too many reshoots given because either the pasters or the RO with the timer thought the score keeper recorded a target when they didn't. As a shooter I like to see my hits.

As a personal preference I am +1 on all of the above. Also, as a selfish matter, it is a lot more fun to watch the action & try to back the r.o. than to be squinting at targets. I'm not sure how much time is really saved by scoring ahead, particularly when hurrying only sets you up to wait a bit longer for the squad ahead of you.

 

[sv40sw45]

Not what I would have guessed, but, clear enough.



As a personal preference I am +1 on all of the above. Also, as a selfish matter, it is a lot more fun to watch the action & try to back the r.o. than to be squinting at targets. I'm not sure how much time is really saved by scoring ahead, particularly when hurrying only sets you up to wait a bit longer for the squad ahead of you.

I don't like the scoring and pasting before I see my hits either. I shot the stage and I want to see my hits. It seems everyone is in such a hurry to get the match shoot and get the hell out of Dodge, I don't under stand. Had complaints at SCGC last match because the scores were not call out, the persons running the Kindles had the targets scored almost as soon as the If Clear Unload and so Clear. This is still supposed to be fun and a not race to see how soon you can get back home. My 2 cents.

 

[racegunz]

Well I still can't see good enough to score the targets from behind the shooter for the most part, I agree, I drive over an hour to any match I am not in a hurry except when I am pulling the trigger LOL! I personaly like the hands on marks, that usually solves any questions you can only contort your body so much, of course then there is the new problem with fingers touching marks or palms flat...... give me a break!

 

[Coach]

The rules should be in place to make the stages safe, to make sure everyone has a level playing field and that is it. They should not be there to create a scene where everyone has to do it the same way, or the way the stage designer wants the stage shot. Freestyle and gaming are part of the sport.

 

[riverman67]

I had a long rant typed up but it seemed a little harsh so I deleted it.
All of this haggling over start positions and what is facing downrange sucks a lot of fun out of the sport. It seems that WSB has to be written like a legal document. If it says toes on marks, that's what it is. Facing up range, facing downrange, inside the fault lines or outside the fault lines. If the shooters toes are touching the marks it all works for me.
If the WSB says toes on marks facing downrange, that is a different animal now that someone decided to define what "downrange" means.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Grelber]

I had a long rant typed up but it seemed a little harsh so I deleted it.

Rhino is awol, Jake's gotten politically correct, Coach is all Fatherly, and now and you are proofreading.

I may be forced to start reading diddly project.

 

[rvb]

diddly project.

and you've gone all Ned Flanders.....

 

[praff]

To me, the most important aspect of a stage as a shooter and as an RO is that everyone that steps onto the course of fire faces the same exact challenge as the last shooter. It really doesnt matter how the rules are interpreted from club A to club B as long as during that match, things stay consistent with a start position for instance. This isnt a problem at most majors as you have the same CRO on the stage for the whole match. It is a problem at local matches though. We all squad with our respective groups of friends and shootiing circles and for every squad the RO is different and therefore, interpretation of the rules can have an impact. On most stages, gaming a start position doesnt make a bit of diference, but there are exceptions where it can make a huge difference. I personally don't care how the rules are interpreted as long as consistency can be maintained.

 

[sdtech58]

From a relative newbie to the shooting sports, one thing that attracted me to USPSA (and 3-gun) is the ability to more or less choose how you want to shoot a particular COF. Really never had any desire to try IDPA for this very reason. IMHO, adding more rules or nit-picking over current rules is not the direction to go.

If it says hands on the marks, it's hands on the marks. Don't really care if the guy is leaning, squatting, or standing on one leg working on his Karate Kid pose as long as it's within the safety guidelines for the sport. If it says toes on the marks, it's toes on the marks. Seems pretty simple. While you are shooting a COF, you are considered facing "downrange" as long as you don't break the 180 plane, correct? Why would a starting position "facing downrange" be any different?

I raced RC cars for years, and one of the things that turned me off from that was guys constantly nit-picking rules or getting pi$$ed off about an interpretation of said rules. Then you throw some money into the equation, whether it be guys protecting sponsorships or trying to win prize money, and that's when you saw the real *********s come out.

What's wrong with a group of (mostly) like-minded individuals enjoying some nice shooting together without picking at rules or being worried about small details?

 

[rvb]

If it says hands on the marks, it's hands on the marks. Don't really care if the guy is leaning, squatting, or standing on one leg working on his Karate Kid pose as long as it's within the safety guidelines for the sport. If it says toes on the marks, it's toes on the marks. Seems pretty simple. While you are shooting a COF, you are considered facing "downrange" as long as you don't break the 180 plane, correct? Why would a starting position "facing downrange" be any different?

"facing downrange" has a specific definition (new in 2014). To get a full definition you have to also look at the "facing up range" definition found in the NROI rulings on uspsa.org.

Earlier in the thread I had made the mistake of "doing it how we've always done it" in this case, which was defaulting to hands relaxed and "somewhere w/in the 180" as you had assumed, because that's how the old facing downrange rules were interpreted.

What's wrong with a group of (mostly) like-minded individuals enjoying some nice shooting together without picking at rules or being worried about small details?

Everyone wants a fair shake. When I'm doing RO/CRO/RM/MD/stats/construction duties, I want to give everyone a fair shake. It's hard to KNOW every rule 100% when wearing all those hats, which is why I'm always willing to go back to the book and investigate like I did above. Giving everyone a fair shake in this case does mean everyone should be starting "facing downrange" per the book definition unless specified otherwise.

Someone asked me a question at the state match a couple weekends ago... I told them what I thought they wanted to do didn't seem right, but it depended on the exact wording. I looked it up that night and emailed them they were ok.

It seldom becomes a big deal on the range. Most just want to have fun. Though there are some who have fun debating rules...

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

From a relative newbie to the shooting sports, one thing that attracted me to USPSA (and 3-gun) is the ability to more or less choose how you want to shoot a particular COF. Really never had any desire to try IDPA for this very reason. IMHO, adding more rules or nit-picking over current rules is not the direction to go.

If it says hands on the marks, it's hands on the marks. Don't really care if the guy is leaning, squatting, or standing on one leg working on his Karate Kid pose as long as it's within the safety guidelines for the sport. If it says toes on the marks, it's toes on the marks. Seems pretty simple. While you are shooting a COF, you are considered facing "downrange" as long as you don't break the 180 plane, correct? Why would a starting position "facing downrange" be any different?

I raced RC cars for years, and one of the things that turned me off from that was guys constantly nit-picking rules or getting pi$$ed off about an interpretation of said rules. Then you throw some money into the equation, whether it be guys protecting sponsorships or trying to win prize money, and that's when you saw the real *********s come out.

What's wrong with a group of (mostly) like-minded individuals enjoying some nice shooting together without picking at rules or being worried about small details?

I'm with you on that but the purpose of this is to make everyone have the same understanding on the rule book, especially the start position. I don't really care how it goes as long as we're all consistent with the rulebook. If we're just doing regular matches (level I), it's fine, but if we go to majors/nationals, things are different. Just like you can get away not spraying paint on steel targets for level I matches but a must for level II/III. It is what it is.

Most of these I posted is because I was called on it as a shooter. Sooner or later you'll encounter a OCD RO and with this knowledge, you'll be able to back up your stance.

 

[rvb]

FYI:

from Apx A3:
Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

from Listing of NROI Rulings - USPSA - United States Practical Shooting Association

The definition of Facing Uprange is amended to read: "Face and Feet pointing directly (180 degrees) away from the backstop with shoulders and hips parallel to the backstop." A natural, "toes out" stance is acceptable and meets the standard of feet pointing directly away from the backstop, as long as both feet do not point in the same direction, and the rest of the position requirements are satisfied.

I hate that they added the facing down range definition in the 2014 rules. Adding it also screwed up 10.5.6.
(I also hate they didn't consider pigeon-toed folks like myself )

-rvb

 

[romack991]

What's wrong with a group of (mostly) like-minded individuals enjoying some nice shooting together without picking at rules or being worried about small details?

As RVB said, it's about getting a fair opportunity. If you look at the OP, 5 out of the 6 topics are helping the shooter either do what they want or ensure they are being scored correctly. It's not about a bunch of ROs trying to screw people over, its about the competitor knowing what they can and can not do to get the best score.

The only real debate is the "facing downrange" verbiage in the default start position and you can see most, if not all, of the comments are pro "freestyle" and let the shooter do what they want. It's just trying to make sure it aligns with the rules as well. As an RO, your job is safety first, and then secondly, ensure everyone has their fair opportunity.

If you don't care about it, no worries, you really won't see it on the range. Worst thing that will happen is an RO asks you to turn your feet a bit.

 

[riverman67]

Rhino is awol, Jake's gotten politically correct, Coach is all Fatherly, and now and you are proofreading.

I may be forced to start reading diddly project.

i'm trying to become a better person.

it's painful

 

[BillD]

I don't understand what's so hard about: Hands relaxed at sides.

It means just what it says but yet, it's tough to get people to start that way. Everyone's ready to go gunfighter stance...lol

 

[Tanfodude]

BTT for new USPSA shooters.

 

[Snizz1911]

Different topic, short beeping angers me. At least once or twice every local I've shot this year it happens. Are you ready, standbeep. Wtf

 

[rvb]

Different topic, short beeping angers me. At least once or twice every local I've shot this year it happens. Are you ready, standbeep. Wtf

It used to bother me. but being bothered only messed with my head/game. now I start listening for the beep at 'are you ready' and pretty much ignore standby...

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

It's 1-4 secs at the RO's discretion unfortunately. What RVB said works.

 

[downrange72]

I like pushing that 4 seconds occasionally. It's fun to watch