walking and shooting

[Coach]

Coach,

You have been ragging on the abilities of Combat Vets for as long I have known you....

As I have Stated Earlier and Several Times, when I want Lessons on How to Shoot better I would go see someone similar to you. When I want to learn Something Tactical/Offensive/Defensive/Combative I won't be seeing someone like you. What do you know about that?! Only what you have read, been told or taught with no practical application.

You have been shooting Comps for what?!
Over a Decade?!
I hope you could beat the Hell out of Someone who does not do Comps at all...



I'll come to your Square Range and Shoot your Stationary Targets.
And I'll make the same offer to you anytime you, fair is fair right. I mean you are better Gunman than I am right?!
Are you willing to spend a Year in an Active and Hot CZ, I know several Firms that are Hiring...

You have never one time heard or read of me ragging on a combat vet or a vet for that matter. Never not once.

I have more than once had to endure the "this would not work in real world, or in combat" type of comment from you and many others on this site and other places. I finally got sick and tired of it and I have asked for a demonstration. You are more than welcome to come to the match in November as my guest as well.

If you and theKidd are able to shoot fast and accurately as you claim. Then I just would life to see it. If you have been in combat the timer should be easy. You and others have said they are fast and accurate and I would just like to see it.

I have been shooting less than a decade in competition for the record. I don't know that I have made any claims of greatness with a gun or otherwise.

But if you come out to the match we will see who is best on that day.

 

[jeremy]

You have never one time heard or read of me ragging on a combat vet or a vet for that matter. Never not once.

Your right ragging was a bit strong, how about condescending...

I have more than once had to endure the "this would not work in real world, or in combat" type of comment from you and many others on this site and other places.

Then why not come to Combat and prove me wrong then?!
No different than you asking me to come to a Comp...

I finally got sick and tired of it and I have asked for a demonstration. You are more than welcome to come to the match in November as my guest as well.

If you and theKidd are able to shoot fast and accurately as you claim. Then I just would life to see it. If you have been in combat the timer should be easy. You and others have said they are fast and accurate and I would just like to see it.

And since you have never been in a CZ or a "real world" situation how do you know that everything you do would work?!

I'll admit I have not stepped on a Comp Range since '98. And I have no intention of ever stepping on one again. But I have been in both Environments, Comp and CZ.


And as I have said I'll come to your little playground if you take a tour with me...
I mean your skills are far superior to mine....

I am sure I can have us a Hop in a couple of Weeks.
Are you up on your Shots?!

I have been shooting less than a decade in competition for the record. I don't know that I have made any claims of greatness with a gun or otherwise.

My bad 8 years...

This is You correct?!

USPSA competition began with club level matches in 2003. ***** competitive career started in the Production division, but it quickly shifted to the Limited 10 division. The 2005 Indiana State Championship marked his the first major match. That match piqued his interest and desire for more major match competition, which has led to shooting matches in Ohio, Kentucky, Illinois, Michigan, Georgia, Florida, Kansas and Pennsylvania.
**** has placed in the top four in Illinois and Kentucky state championships, and was the Indiana Champion in 2007, all in the Limited 10 division.

But if you come out to the match we will see who is best on that day.

As I said Earlier you should be able to kick the hell out of me on your Square 2 Dimensional Range with Stationary Targets with the Rules you have been Following for 8 years...


Coach,
Don't take it so personal when I say I will not take a class from you. You only have a Couple of Persons that I would even be willing to consider as Instructors for possible Training. You just do not offer what I want for training.

Sorry...

 

[Coach]

Your right ragging was a bit strong, how about condescending...

Then why not come to Combat and prove me wrong then?!
No different than you asking me to come to a Comp...


And since you have never been in a CZ or a "real world" situation how do you know that everything you do would work?!

I'll admit I have not stepped on a Comp Range since '98. And I have no intention of ever stepping on one again. But I have been in both Environments, Comp and CZ.


And as I have said I'll come to your little playground if you take a tour with me...
I mean your skills are far superior to mine....

I am sure I can have us a Hop in a couple of Weeks.
Are you up on your Shots?!


My bad 8 years...

This is You correct?!







As I said Earlier you should be able to kick the hell out of me on your Square 2 Dimensional Range with Stationary Targets with the Rules you have been Following for 8 years...


Coach,
Don't take it so personal when I say I will not take a class from you. You only have a Couple of Persons that I would even be willing to consider as Instructors for possible Training. You just do not offer what I want for training.

Sorry...

Don't care that you would want to take a class from me or not.

8 years is correct. yes that is me. My real name is available here. Not hiding.

There is a big difference between shooting a competition and going to combat. You or anyone else can do that without disrupting their whole life to do it. I am not able or willing to go to combat in order to make a point.
Your offer is ridiculous in that it is not even in the same realm as my request.

Match or combat same thing. No

Gun skills used in both the same. No but there is a lot of overlap.

 

[the1kidd03]

Don't care that you would want to take a class from me or not.

8 years is correct. yes that is me. My real name is available here. Not hiding.

There is a big difference between shooting a competition and going to combat. You or anyone else can do that without disrupting their whole life to do it. I am not able or willing to go to combat in order to make a point.
Your offer is ridiculous in that it is not even in the same realm as my request.

Match or combat same thing. No

Gun skills used in both the same. No but there is a lot of overlap.

So then how do you propose that us coming to your 2D range and competing on your playing field is AT ALL a comparison of a person's skills when each have been trained for two different purposes?? You attempt to get a combat vet to come "prove his skills" to appease your arrogance is no different than a combat vet asking you to join him in CZ to prove your skills....they are equally "one-sided"/stack against him...you know you would be a disadvantage in a CZ and you know we would be at a disadvantage on a comp range....so your demand/request to come "prove our skills" to you is pointless other than to appease your own ego to be able to say "I told you so" when you know you're not going to give us that same opportunity to say "I told you so" by following us to the box

 

[jeremy]

Don't care that you would want to take a class from me or not.

LOL

8 years is correct. yes that is me. My real name is available here. Not hiding.

I don't care to throw Person's "Real" names around in the Forums.

There is a big difference between shooting a competition and going to combat. You or anyone else can do that without disrupting their whole life to do it. I am not able or willing to go to combat in order to make a point.
Your offer is ridiculous in that it is not even in the same realm as my request.

Really, I am no longer a Full time Soldier. Therefore a Tour would disrupt my life just as much as yours. Actually, possibly even more so that yours.

My Offer is just a ridiculous as expecting a Combat Soldier to be able to walk onto a Comp Range and be able to run with the big dogs.

You spend how many Hours every day practicing by the Rules of the Comp Association that you shoot under?!
I'll admit to spending countless hours every week practicing Mag Changes and Dry-fire Drills with Rifles and Pistols. I also spend Countless Hours every week reading on Tactics, Techniques, Procedures, Strategy and Military Science.

Match or combat same thing. No

Exactly the same thing every Combat Vet has been saying here repeatedly...

Gun skills used in both the same. No but there is a lot of overlap.

Again, I think I have been reading the exact same thing over and over and over again here...

 

[sloughfoot]

I have nothing but respect for the soldiers who have gone to war and have survived.

You vets may be interested in looking at the website for the soldiers who teach other soldiers to shoot. They seem to believe that there is value in 2D shooting ranges...

United States Army Marksmanship Unit

Great bunch of men and women, they appear at 2D civilian events all over the country.

It seems to me that none of us should box ourselves into just "one" way that training should take place. One never knows what lies over the next hill.

Regards

 

[the1kidd03]

I have nothing but respect for the soldiers who have gone to war and have survived.

You vets may be interested in looking at the website for the soldiers who teach other soldiers to shoot. They seem to belive that there is value in 2D civilian shooting...

United States Army Marksmanship Unit

Great bunch of men and women, they appear at 2D civilian events all over the country.

I completely agree....there is value to the skills needed/learned in competition shooting......however there are also some bad habits and/or many additional factors,tactics,etc which cannot be gotten on a competition field but are necessary in real life situations............I have nothing against competition shooters, they are very skilled in marksmanship, and what they practice within the regulations of their competition organization.....but in real life combat those regulations don't exist and your target/enemy combatant can come up behind you(for example) just as easily as in front of you.....while competitive shooting does offer a lot to a professional soldier in the way of speed and accuracy, it has it's limitations for capatibility in a CZ

 

[sloughfoot]

Yes sir, and translating your formidible combat skills to a civilian situation in CONUS can be just as deadly as a bullet from a un-neutralized enemy combatant in the warzone. The lawyers can have us for lunch..

I guess I am just asking that you keep an open mind, that there is value in all training. It is up to the trainee to take what he needs from the training.

It can also be fun. Our silly little 2D civilian games. You might laugh at our clumsy attempts and we will welcome your input. But you don't have all the answers either. Who knows, you might learn something too.

I just scratch my head when I hear guys say that rifle and pistol bullseye shooting has no value, but yet both the Army and Marines and indeed all the Military services field competitors in bullseye sport shooting. And the same shooters are practiced in the so-called combat shooting arts and train their fellow soldiers in those arts too.

 

[Coach]

LOL

I don't care to throw Person's "Real" names around in the Forums.

Really, I am no longer a Full time Soldier. Therefore a Tour would disrupt my life just as much as yours. Actually, possibly even more so that yours.

My Offer is just a ridiculous as expecting a Combat Soldier to be able to walk onto a Comp Range and be able to run with the big dogs.

You spend how many Hours every day practicing by the Rules of the Comp Association that you shoot under?!
I'll admit to spending countless hours every week practicing Mag Changes and Dry-fire Drills with Rifles and Pistols. I also spend Countless Hours every week reading on Tactics, Techniques, Procedures, Strategy and Military Science.

Exactly the same thing every Combat Vet has been saying here repeatedly...

Again, I think I have been reading the exact same thing over and over and over again here...

How about some drills that you come up with? Then my years of knowing the competition rules won't be a factor?

Would Law Enforcement count as real world? Would kicking down a door to a hotel room that eye witnesses said a armed man was in count? Would pursuing an armed escaped convict through a woods count? Domestic battery arrests? Would those count for real world? Not a combat zone but there were no rules in place. I manged to make it through.

 

[David Rose]

No, I can’t take it any more. Jeremy, Kid lets talk about projection. You come into this conversation talking BS about retreat. Next you throw down the “been there done that” trump card and essentially claim “can’t nobody teach me nothing” ironically you RETREATed from that position fairly quickly and admit competition does have a place. After making all these solid observations about the topic of shooting on the move, you defend your position by insulting people with alternative views. (arrogant, butt-hurt, cherry)

Now let’s talk about these ego maniac competition shooters. People like Coach and Jake. I haven’t seen Coaches W-2 but I’m pretty sure he hasn’t become independently wealthy teaching people to shoot. Would he get more trophies if he spent less time teaching, organizing matches, and doing the grunt work necessary to make these matches possible, YES, but he sacrifices to help other people become better shooters. Jake has possibly the most thankless job in Indiana competition shooting. I can’t even imagine the number of hours of behind the scenes work required to run one of the matches he is responsible for. These are people who would give the shirt off their backs and the ammo out there range bags to anyone genuinely interest in improving their skills.

So what’s the problem with this bravado diarrhea of the mouth approach? As you have both stated you are no longer full time soldiers you made it back alive, and thank God for that, but there are young people right now who will be going into harms way. The fact that these young people look up to the old guard and that your attitudes might convince them not to pursue training beyond that provided by the military. Training that will make them more capable and might just make the difference between coming home in one piece or not.


P.S.
The competition you have been invited to is free style, as long as you can keep from pointing the gun up range at your fellow competitors you can play. You are not required to use the same guns, gear, or tactics as anyone else.

 

[the1kidd03]

Yes sir, and translating your formidible combat skills to a civilian situation in CONUS can be just as deadly as a bullet from a un-neutralized enemy combatant in the warzone. The lawyers can have us for lunch..

I guess I am just asking that you keep an open mind, that there is value in all training. It is up to the trainee to take what he needs from the training.

It can also be fun. Our silly little 2D civilian games. You might laugh at our clumsy attempts and we will welcome your input. But you don't have all the answers either. Who knows, you might learn something too.

I just scratch my head when I hear guys say that rifle and pistol bullseye shooting has no value, but yet both the Army and Marines and indeed all the Military services field competitors in bullseye sport shooting. And the same shooters are practiced in the so-called combat shooting arts and train their fellow soldiers in those arts too.

Yes, I know that legalities in the civilian world are a hinderance on one's ability to protect themselves.

I do have a very open mind, as Jeremy and I both have stated...there is always more to learn but they are two different worlds and not completely interchangeable. I never claimed to be "all-knowing" or imply that there is nothing else that I could learn....if the gentlemen on this thread take my words as that, then that is their problem/mistake. I wouldn't laugh at anyones sport/hobby as it is their choice. I would offer my assistance if I see somewhere that I could help just as I would accept such help from another.

Everyone here seems to think that just because we recognize the differences in the arenas that we're somehow implying that we're "better" and that's simply not the case. Just pointing out that it is two completely different situations where not ALL of the methods used will work for both worlds.

 

[the1kidd03]

No, I can’t take it any more. Jeremy, Kid lets talk about projection. You come into this conversation talking BS about retreat.

No I didn't. I said " I was never taught to retreat ...and I never did the moon walk in combat
you should be completely aware of items that near to you and which you more than likely just passed in your movement forward....so if you trip up, I'd have to question such a person's SA............I've trained in this type of shooting extensively(only training as falling back wasn't part of our vocabulary) and in all sorts of terrain, buildings, etc....never had a problem going down.........your speed when shooting on the move, if trying to engage accurately, is going to be slow enough to begin with that you are probably not/should not need to worry about falling down..plus rolling your feet means you aren't applying all of your balance/weight on the rearward foot instantly..just my" notice the smilies indicating that I was being humorous about the comment

Next you throw down the “been there done that” trump card and essentially claim “can’t nobody teach me nothing”

I did? Where? If someone takes the points I'm trying to make out of context, that's not my fault or my problem is it?

ironically you RETREATed from that position fairly quickly and admit competition does have a place.

I never said that it didn't "have a place"....I pointed out that while many of the skills are valuable in either arena there are tactics and many other variables involved as well and so they are not entirely accurate representations of one another

After making all these solid observations about the topic of shooting on the move, you defend your position by insulting people with alternative views. (arrogant, butt-hurt, cherry)

I treat every man with the level of respect they have given me...making insinuations about one's credibility, capabilities, etc is no less insulting then pointing out another's apparent personality traits in a given situation......so if my rataliatory words hurt someone's feelings....there problem, not mine

"Now let’s talk about these ego maniac competition shooters. People like Coach and Jake. I haven’t seen Coaches W-2 but I’m pretty sure he hasn’t become independently wealthy teaching people to shoot. Would he get more trophies if he spent less time teaching, organizing matches, and doing the grunt work necessary to make these matches possible, YES, but he sacrifices to help other people become better shooters. Jake has possibly the most thankless job in Indiana competition shooting. I can’t even imagine the number of hours of behind the scenes work required to run one of the matches he is responsible for. These are people who would give the shirt off their backs and the ammo out there range bags to anyone genuinely interest in improving their skills.

So what’s the problem with this bravado diarrhea of the mouth approach? As you have both stated you are no longer full time soldiers you made it back alive, and thank God for that, but there are young people right now who will be going into harms way. The fact that these young people look up to the old guard and that your attitudes might convince them not to pursue training beyond that provided by the military. Training that will make them more capable and might just make the difference between coming home in one piece or not. "

I have NEVER, nor will ever discourage anyone from seeking additional training pertaining to their career choice...if they take someone's opinion as such, then again....not my concern...........likewise, I have no doubt that Coach or anyone else on this board are good people....

 

[jakemartens]

OK, let's go, sign me up I will take a job over there

I don't like my job I have now, and taking a year off from being a father/husband actually doesn't sound too bad.

Until they ship us out how about we meet up and no match, no timer, no bs, just go shooting, I mean I am going to need this kind of training and you have the experience to teach me before we go so how about it?
Let's just go and shoot

 

[jakemartens]

what about this?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v350R55osNg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDXgq7LpXCI&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayb2V5w_vu4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/ame]

Here are some training tips from Army marksmanship unit,
(Last year he was in Afganistan)
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9pnPYTDI6I&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJcRm-nCwNY&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1zVYv6zxkk&feature=related[/ame]


or even this
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDpYDKvBpG4&feature=autoplay&list=ULayb2V5w_vu4&lf=mfu_in_order&playnext=1[/ame]

 

[jakemartens]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm8SanSnzE4[/ame]

 

[ray d]

This may be off topic but the easy way to train at home is with an unloaded weapon and a treadmill.Any gun any speed . Try to keep the front sight on target with dry trigger presses.

 

[jakemartens]

So it has been over 24 hours since I posted that I would sign up and go over to those jobs that Jeremy spoke of. I sent him a PM asking about getting more information about. I posted that we should just meet up and go shooting, no competition, no timers, no bs, just meet and go shooting.
I put in the PM I sent to Jeremy that I am willing to be trained on what situations that I might encounter in the "Suck" (is that right?) and that while I waited to find out about the jobs we should meet and he could show me a few things.

Both thekidd and Jeremy have been online, Jeremy is now, and thekidd less about an hour ago, but yet neither of them have responded.

I am willing to agree to your terms, and I am not even asking for you to come to a match, just to meet up and go shooting, it can be tin cans and red riders for all I care.

So what's up?

 

[jeremy]

So it has been over 24 hours since I posted that I would sign up and go over to those jobs that Jeremy spoke of. I sent him a PM asking about getting more information about. I posted that we should just meet up and go shooting, no competition, no timers, no bs, just meet and go shooting.
I put in the PM I sent to Jeremy that I am willing to be trained on what situations that I might encounter in the "Suck" (is that right?) and that while I waited to find out about the jobs we should meet and he could show me a few things.

Both thekidd and Jeremy have been online, Jeremy is now, and thekidd less about an hour ago, but yet neither of them have responded.

I am willing to agree to your terms, and I am not even asking for you to come to a match, just to meet up and go shooting, it can be tin cans and red riders for all I care.

So what's up?

Just getting back in from Drill Weekend. I have to catch up on paperwork from having to play at Guards this weekend, before I can answer you back in depth...

 

[jakemartens]

OK, let's go, sign me up I will take a job over there

I don't like my job I have now, and taking a year off from being a father/husband actually doesn't sound too bad.

Until they ship us out how about we meet up and no match, no timer, no bs, just go shooting, I mean I am going to need this kind of training and you have the experience to teach me before we go so how about it?
Let's just go and shoot

 

[jakemartens]

Hey kidd, you were on just 30 minutes ago, but since I have said that I just want to go shooting with you, and you can teach me somethings you haven't responded, what's up keyboard broke, nope you have posted in other threads.

According to your bio

About the1kidd03 Biography Prior U.S. Marine, survivalist, defense/combat insructor, competitive shooter, private collector

It says you are a combat/defense instructor, I would like to take a class from you, I can pretty much anytime, you just name a place
It also says you are a competition shooter, which if that is the case then what competition, when and where I will go, hell I will drive!
Just let me know, I am ready to
-just go shooting
-take a combat/defense course from you
-go to the competition of your choice
-sign up and take a job to go over to the "sand box"

Call me 317-828-5338, email jakemartens@comcast.net,
Come by the house
7529 blue willow drive
46239
Meet me at work, SEARS at Washington square mall
Come out to watch a match, I will be at Atlanta conservation club this Saturday and sunday

Same goes for you Jeremy, still haven't seen anything about those jobs that you could line up, please don't forget.