What is IMPD's duty round

[VERT]

It is surprising how much training could be done with 600 rounds. Especially if the practice drills are well thought out. Realistically 600 rounds is enough for quarterly drills.

 

[Denny347]

That seems like such a small amount. I burn through that in 2-3 range trips or in the course of a single day pistol class. Then again, I'm generally just putting holes in paper. There isn't a lot of tactical thought behind it.

Times 1500 officers, logistically, that is a lot of ammo and time. We get great use of the ammo available to us. The line course we shoot is always the qualification courses, the rest are tactical shooting. Moving and shooting, shooting under stress, that kind of stuff. Low round count per each course but you learn a TON.

 

[VERT]

600 rounds x 1500 officers + duty ammo. That is a million rounds a year. Where is the public outcry?

 

[phylodog]

Why not on the AR round

Missed this thread the first time around. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.

 

[MCgrease08]

600 rounds x 1500 officers + duty ammo. That is a million rounds a year. Where is the public outcry?

Good point. 1 million rounds

 

[phylodog]

It's cheap insurance.

 

[Fargo]

Missed this thread the first time around. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.

Having seen the autopsy pics on someone shot with this round, I too am curious as to its perceived shortcomings.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Here's more butthurt material - I drove my police car to BGF when I bought the ammo.

Missed this thread the first time around. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.

Me too... But apparently Devil knows...

PM inbound.

Why the secrecy? If its legit info you are willing to pass on to others, you shouldnt be afraid to stand behind the facts and post publicly.

 

[devil07]

Why the secrecy? If its legit info you are willing to pass on to others, you shouldnt be afraid to stand behind the facts and post publicly.

The goal of pm'ing was not secrecy, nor fear. Some of what I pm'd him was related to unverified rumblings within the department regarding that round. Which I didn't want to post on the open net until I could get clarification from range staff. I actually just pm'd phylo about that after seeing this thread again. I'll leave it to him to post reference the grumblings, as he is far more "in the know" and would have see the AAR and photos of incidents.

From what I remember, the PM included:
1) if you can find it at a gun store, it's like $45 per box of 20 (I know, no price on your life). And unless things have changed, it's hard to buy unless LEO.
2) It's a bonded core soft point, which mean fragmentation is non existent. Everything I've ever read about 5.56 lethality emphasizes fragmentation. The bonded core sp means it'll mushroom, but I don't know how much.
3) There are other option that may fit the roll of home defense better and to read up on them. Such as ballistic tip rounds for inside a home. Not something that is intended to be 'barrier blind'. Meaning, if you miss, a non-BB rd might be lower risk of punching through interior/exterior walls with enough juice left to hurt an unintended target.
4) When I looked at the specs for the duty round, iirc the MV was much lower than standard 5.56/.223, which would affect POA/POI between practice and defense rounds. At least based on interweb MV numbers on Federal's website. According to federal's own website, the duty round is MV 2705, while AE223 is 3240.

Having seen the autopsy pics on someone shot with this round, I too am curious as to its perceived shortcomings.

I'd be interested to hear more about your impressions.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Thanks for the update Devil.

 

[Robjps]

From what I remember, the PM included:
1) if you can find it at a gun store, it's like $45 per box of 20 (I know, no price on your life). And unless things have changed, it's hard to buy unless LEO

Easy to find online and you can even buy the projectile its a speer projectile.

2) It's a bonded core soft point, which mean fragmentation is non existent. Everything I've ever read about 5.56 lethality emphasizes fragmentation. The bonded core sp means it'll mushroom, but I don't know how much.

I'd agree 193 is a better round if there is no chance of any kind of barrier, it does mushroom quite nice.

3) There are other option that may fit the roll of home defense better and to read up on them. Such as ballistic tip rounds for inside a home. Not something that is intended to be 'barrier blind'. Meaning, if you miss, a non-BB rd might be lower risk of punching through interior/exterior walls with enough juice left to hurt an unintended target.

Everything will go through interior/exterior walls unless you have brick/concrete walls.

4) When I looked at the specs for the duty round, iirc the MV was much lower than standard 5.56/.223, which would affect POA/POI between practice and defense rounds. At least based on interweb MV numbers on Federal's website. According to federal's own website, the duty round is MV 2705, while AE223 is 3240.

Posted speeds are almost always incorrect, would need to put them both on a chrono and obviously a 62grain is going to be running slower then a 55g.

I'd be interested to hear more about your impressions.

Answers in red.

 

[ashby koss]

Here's more butthurt material - I drove my police car to BGF when I bought the ammo.

This I have no issue with, since the more presence ont he streets the better even IF off duty. What I DO have a problem with is when I see a department car from a county over 60 miles away unloading off duty officer and his whole family at the state fair.

To be honest I don't know the full situation. Perhaps it was not his family but he was volunteering at a police booth, and brought a single mother and family for charity to the fair, I honestly don't know, BUT it does give the wrong impression.

 

[phylodog]

Why the secrecy? If its legit info you are willing to pass on to others, you shouldnt be afraid to stand behind the facts and post publicly.

The goal of pm'ing was not secrecy, nor fear. Some of what I pm'd him was related to unverified rumblings within the department regarding that round.

Frank, it was the information (or misinformation) that I covered during last year's rifle training about our ammo selection. For others interested, there were perceived failures of our rifle ammo to sufficiently penetrate automobiles. These beliefs were based on faulty information about shot placement and unrealistic expectations of what a 55gr projectile is capable of doing against hard targets.

As with most aspects of our (my) job, we have to find a balance between what will best protect our officers yet won't present a significant likelihood of collateral damage. I'm confident that we are where we should be. My brother carries a rifle on my department and I wouldn't put a round in his rifle that I didn't think was sufficient for the job nor one that is likely to create a bad situation for him.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Frank, it was the information (or misinformation) that I covered during last year's rifle training about our ammo selection. For others interested, there were perceived failures of our rifle ammo to sufficiently penetrate automobiles. These beliefs were based on faulty information about shot placement and unrealistic expectations of what a 55gr projectile is capable of doing against hard targets.

As with most aspects of our (my) job, we have to find a balance between what will best protect our officers yet won't present a significant likelihood of collateral damage. I'm confident that we are where we should be. My brother carries a rifle on my department and I wouldn't put a round in his rifle that I didn't think was sufficient for the job nor one that is likely to create a bad situation for him.

Awesome! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[devil07]

Frank, it was the information (or misinformation) that I covered during last year's rifle training about our ammo selection. For others interested, there were perceived failures of our rifle ammo to sufficiently penetrate automobiles. These beliefs were based on faulty information about shot placement and unrealistic expectations of what a 55gr projectile is capable of doing against hard targets.

As with most aspects of our (my) job, we have to find a balance between what will best protect our officers yet won't present a significant likelihood of collateral damage. I'm confident that we are where we should be. My brother carries a rifle on my department and I wouldn't put a round in his rifle that I didn't think was sufficient for the job nor one that is likely to create a bad situation for him.

Yes, thank you again for the clarification phylo. Now knowing the shot placement of those two incidents, which is different than the original info I heard, it was definitely not a deficiency of the round. Which is why I didn't post it on the open forum originally, I wanted to verify/get more information. Something that I wasn't able to achieve until after this thread died the first time.

Re-reading my original post regarding the rifle round, I regret the wording. It implied a certainty or a 'stay away' meaning. I think (or maybe hope) my original intent wasn't to say not to use it, so much as I wouldn't necessarily choose it above all other options as a dedicated home defense round. However, Phylo has far more hands on info regarding the round vs. other options. I would be interest to know if he'd select the same round for a dedicated HD rd. As opposed to a ballistic tip, an OTM style, FMJ (not SS109/M855), or ____

 

[phylodog]

For home defense an OTM would be a better selection in my opinion. One of the biggest advantages of 5.56 for HD is it's lack of over penetration through drywall. From what I've seen in ballistic tests the OTM seems to some apart a little better than a BT through drywall.