What you guys think about this electric truck?

[Hawkeye]

....and the when towing it's full capacity?

....and the recharge time after driving the full range?

I have no idea on either. the folks I'm reading (on the internet, so they must be true, right?) all acknowledge the range will be reduced by towing. I'm sure it will depend on the weight and wind resistance of the load, too. Everything on the CT is pretty much speculation right now.

Based on my very limited knowledge/understanding, he time to recharge depends on the current charge level in the batteries and the rating of the charging system. A supercharger will be faster than a "regular" charger and the more powerful superchargers are probably faster than the ones with a lower rating.

n.b.: I am interested in the trimotor CT. Its the first Tesla that gives me hope for longer distance driving that I would be interested in.

 

[HoughMade]

That was nearly a rhetorical question on my part.

Based upon towing tests with electric vehicles, near their towing capacity, range will be, optimistically, 25-35% of what it is empty. That takes 500 miles down closer to 180, give or take.

Then the charging- if you use the whole capacity, you are looking at a full charge. This takes well over an hour for something like a Model X P100D, and the bigger the battery capacity, the longer.

Drive 2.5 hours, charge 1.5 hours, drive 2.5 hours, charge 1.5 hours...lather, rinse repeat.

 

[churchmouse]

That was nearly a rhetorical question on my part.

Based upon towing tests with electric vehicles, near their towing capacity, range will be, optimistically, 25-35% of what it is empty. That takes 500 miles down closer to 180, give or take.

Then the charging- if you use the whole capacity, you are looking at a full charge. This takes well over an hour for something like a Model X P100D, and the bigger the battery capacity, the longer.

Drive 2.5 hours, charge 1.5 hours, drive 2.5 hours, charge 1.5 hours...lather, rinse repeat.

If you are towing and the capacity gets below 25% is there not a factor involved that slows you down and could cause issues with the electrics. Low power big heat under load etc.
Flat lining a battery pack is never a good thing. Never.

 

[Hohn]

No Luck needed when you have knowledge

Alright kids, here we go. Uncle H's guide to electric trucks-- what will and won't happen.

The fundamental problem is energy storage. The 35 gallon fuel tanks in a typical pickup truck will have a lower heating value of 43.4 MJ/kg. 35 gallons of fuel is about 96kg (212 lb or so). In other words, the full gas tank stores about 4.17 gigajoules of energy as a lower limit.

In KiloWatt-hours, that is 1158. Or about 55 times the energy that the 20kw-hr batteries of the Workhorse truck can store according to the link posted above. Twenty vs 1158 kW-hr isn't even close. This isn't a "we're almost there, almost closing the gap" conversation at all.

The superior efficiency of electric motors helps close this gap a bit. The gasoline engine will be about 35% efficient. The electric motors will be about 85% efficient. Which means the energy out-- vs the storage energy in-- is more like 405kW-hr for gasoline and 17kW-hr for the electric truck. So the real disadvantage is more like 24x less energy storage instead of 55x.

Regenerative braking and other techs will help the electric vehicle use less energy and recharge its batteries. So the 20kW-hr battery isn't quite the equivalent 1.47 gallon gas tank as the math would suggest just from an energy output. Gasoline trucks lose all the energy once they convert it to kinetic energy in the vehicle because brakes turn it to waste heat. Electric trucks recover some of this. This isn't a trivial thing. A 6600# truck going 62mph has 1.15 mJ of kinetic energy. Every time this vehicle is stopped, ALL of that energy is wasted in the gasoline truck. The electric will recover about half of it.

So an electric "truck" can be a thing, as long as it doesn't have to work hard far away from a recharge, OR if it's just in town where it has very little aero drag and regen braking can help it a lot.

But the electric truck is not the kind of truck that will haul your boat or RV or even a heavy load of firewood 250 miles to grandma's house. And there's no reason to believe it can become so any time soon, because the required advances in battery tech aren't another 10% 20%, but are more like we need a 20x improvement in battery density to break even.

I'll readily admit that a gas tank need not be 35 gal to be useful. So I'd say that even a 10x improvement to battery storage density is required-- and equivalent of a 17.5 gal gas tank. But that's not anywhere near on the horizon. Battery tech is making useful advances on the controls side-- thermal mgt, etc. But controls won't get you 10x. We'd need an entirely new chemistry. And li-po batteries have matured so quickly that a 10x improvement is a huge leap of faith.

That's assuming it's even *possible* at any cost. Never mind trying to make it cost-effective.


There absolutely will be electric trucks in the future. But they will be FedEx trucks and postal trucks and day-trip trucks that stay in town. The "pickup" that is electric will be more like a Honda Ridgeline than a Ford Superduty. As long as you don't need it to do hard work or heavy loads, it can work well. After all, you're just building a larger Tesla. As long as you use it like a Model S, it's fine. How long have we had electric golf carts? Scale that up to a run-around-town multi-stop truck and you'll have something viable *today*.


But the presence of electric trucks does NOT mean the end of gasoline or diesel trucks. For the same reasons that we won't have electric container ships in my lifetime. Nor likely my grandkids' lifetime, either.

(DISCLAIMER: If the international Statists get their way and effectively prosecute their war on fossil fuels to impoverish the world, well then yes, you CAN have anything be electric or hybrid or whatever if the more cost effective option is made illegal or regulated out of existence. But it will impoverish us, and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise).

 

[Hohn]

Incidentally, the energy to drag a 20,000 # rig up the Grapevine is about 12kw-hr. Roughly 60% of the total battery capacity of the "workhorse" truck.

SIXTY. PERCENT.

ONE ASCENT.

 

[Hawkeye]

That was nearly a rhetorical question on my part.

Based upon towing tests with electric vehicles, near their towing capacity, range will be, optimistically, 25-35% of what it is empty. That takes 500 miles down closer to 180, give or take.

Then the charging- if you use the whole capacity, you are looking at a full charge. This takes well over an hour for something like a Model X P100D, and the bigger the battery capacity, the longer.

Drive 2.5 hours, charge 1.5 hours, drive 2.5 hours, charge 1.5 hours...lather, rinse repeat.

Yes that takes the 500 down. And the 300 miles goes down too. GTHat's why 500 kind of kicks my interest.

As to the times, Tesla has a trip planning website that lets you plug in a vehicle type, start and destination. It routes you and tells you what chargers to stop at and for ~ how long at each. Ive played with it a couple of items and most of the stops are relatively short. Usually ~ 15 minutes or so. so you are probably not fully recharging at each one.I've also read that they recharge at a faster rate at, say, 25% to 50% than at, say 60% to 85%. My totally uneducated guess is that you start a long trip with nearly a full charge at home, and merely boost your charge at stops as you drive. Then you'd top it back up at your destination for the return trip. Again, based on what i've read, tesla doesn't recommend trying to keep the battery at 100%. If I had one, I'd be comfortable with 40-60% charge for daily use. That's 200-400 miles or so. Also, note the clostst Superchager to me is an 80-100 mile round trip.

 

[Hohn]

Generally, a Li-Po battery is most efficicient and durable in the middle of its charge range. Better to top off often and avoid taking over 85% of max charge.

Keep it between 25% and 75% and they last much longer in terms of cycles and "aging"

 

[schmart]

Does anyone know if the charging stations outside of Beechgrove Walmart cost anything?

I don't know specifically about that Walmart, however, I do know that Electrify America (the company that VW was forced to fund after DieselGate) is installing chargers at a bunch of Walmart parking lots. They are charged on a per minute usage basis, based on the initial charge rate of the car. If you keep the car connected for more than 10 minutes after charging is complete, there is a per minute connection "penalty" added on as well that is higher than the rate when charging.

--Rick

 

[2in1evtime]

After seeing all the issues with the cars, would you want to chance the truck being new??

 

[Hawkeye]

After seeing all the issues with the cars, would you want to chance the truck being new??

What are "all the issues with the cars"?

 

[ATOMonkey]

Mr. Hohn is 100% accurate. Electric OTR trucks are a total pipe dream. The math just isn't even close.

Delivery vehicles may be doable if you only have to make a couple of short trips a day and can charge overnight.

The challenge, so succinctly put is energy density and/or conversion. How do we store an easily replenished, massive amount of energy, in a small, fairly lightweight space, and efficiently convert it into motion? Right now we have liquid fuel and combustion engines. They work OK, but solid fuel and electric motors is where you want to end up. Solid fuel has the greatest energy density, and electric motors are the most mechanically efficient.

Some of that tech exists, but it is primarily for stationary power gen. It's too heavy and bulky for mobile applications at this time.

I have seen some interesting things about solid hydroxide fuel cells, but they're not ready for prime time yet.

 

[Hawkeye]

Mr. Hohn is 100% accurate. Electric OTR trucks are a total pipe dream. The math just isn't even close.

Delivery vehicles may be doable if you only have to make a couple of short trips a day and can charge overnight.

The challenge, so succinctly put is energy density and/or conversion. How do we store an easily replenished, massive amount of energy, in a small, fairly lightweight space, and efficiently convert it into motion? Right now we have liquid fuel and combustion engines. They work OK, but solid fuel and electric motors is where you want to end up. Solid fuel has the greatest energy density, and electric motors are the most mechanically efficient.

Some of that tech exists, but it is primarily for stationary power gen. It's too heavy and bulky for mobile applications at this time.

I have seen some interesting things about solid hydroxide fuel cells, but they're not ready for prime time yet.

Agree on OTR with today’s technology. But true long haul OTR shouldn’t be the province of highway trucks any way. Heavy trucks should really be short haul from a local warehouse or terminal to the store or other distribution point - maybe 100-200 miles.

 

[actaeon277]

One question I have.
Gas pumps get "certified". To prove that when they say they pumped 1 gallon, they actually pump 1 gallon.
An unscrupulous company can make a lot by shorting customers 5 percent, but spread over a bunch of customers.
It's easy to verify. They bring in various gas cans, certified to be a certain size, with graduations.
Pump gas.
Check the graduation mark.

But how do you certify the charging station?
It can be done.
But, are they doing it?
Anyone think the power company is above reproach?

 

[actaeon277]

And, about towing..


[video=youtube;jhX3BmhJXc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhX3BmhJXc8[/video]

 

[Hawkeye]

One question I have.
Gas pumps get "certified". To prove that when they say they pumped 1 gallon, they actually pump 1 gallon.
An unscrupulous company can make a lot by shorting customers 5 percent, but spread over a bunch of customers.
It's easy to verify. They bring in various gas cans, certified to be a certain size, with graduations.
Pump gas.
Check the graduation mark.

But how do you certify the charging station?
It can be done.
But, are they doing it?
Anyone think the power company is above reproach?

Interesting question. I guess you'd have to look at the various regulators and ask. I think the current fuel pumps are certified by an agency (Department of Agriculture?). You could ask them?

 

[actaeon277]

I only bring it up, because my job is instrumentation and electronics. I have to certify instrumentation, over and over, in the mill and I did it in the Navy (nuke). So, been doing it since the mid 80s.

 

[Hawkeye]

I only bring it up, because my job is instrumentation and electronics. I have to certify instrumentation, over and over, in the mill and I did it in the Navy (nuke). So, been doing it since the mid 80s.

Maybe a job for yo after you retire from the steel mill?

 

[actaeon277]

Maybe a job for yo after you retire from the steel mill?

Could be. Sounds like a lot of travel though.

 

[KittySlayer]

That cab looks very familiar...

When I saw the free(*) advertising they got I assumed it was a concept car that would be changed dramatically before being built. I was shocked that this design was the final product.

(*) That steel ball window stunt got them millions of views that would cost a lot of money to buy advertising time.

 

[Hohn]

Agree on OTR with today’s technology. But true long haul OTR shouldn’t be the province of highway trucks any way. Heavy trucks should really be short haul from a local warehouse or terminal to the store or other distribution point - maybe 100-200 miles.

Agree, because the cost per ton-mile of rail is many times better than an OTR truck. But since our betters decided we should rip out much of our old railways and replace them with McMansions and highways, we're stuck with trucks.

And better than all the rest is the container ship. Talk about your energy storage and low cost per ton-mile.