White County Teachers Complain About an Owie During Active Shooter Training

[thunderchicken]

I would like to think the agency (trainers) providing the training would have done a good job explaing what to expect upfront. In addition, from the story I saw the teachers signed liability waivers before they participated and were given protective face masks. Given they claim to have been shot execution style, I'm not sure if that was necessary. Kinda hard to say without more info about the training and the scenario that was happening at that time.
Also what wasn't clear to me is was it an effort to train the teachers or was this a police training situation?
If it was a police training exercise then I can potentially see it as important distinction between and actual active shooter or someone holding people at gun point. May require different action by responding officers and that may have been part of the training. Wasn't there so all just speculation on my part

 

[Brad69]

First off I am all in on tough realistic training that is as close to the “real thing” as possible. Having participated in training that would be considered high risk on a regular basis since I was 17. Risk management is a big part of training, does the risk outway the training value?
If I were tasked to develop a training plan for a active shooter in a school my first question would be what is the “endstate” what will the teachers walk away from the training with?

Our local TV spent about 15 min on this and had a interview with a teacher that stated “we were lined up and shot at close range”. In consideration of the doctrine of run, hide, fight I don’t see the training value of of shooting anyone in that manner. I was always taught to look at your audience when setting up training. I am not going to attempt to instruct advance CQB to a Maintance unit the personnel do not have the “base of training “ for the event to be effective. Simple drills that they can master quickly would be far more effective. If I was training a Infantry unit it would be game on because of the “base of training”.

I could concive a plan where you surprised the teachers and shot them up and the “recock” the have the teachers apply the doctrine of run, hide, fight with good ROE. Then a AAR to see how applying a doctrine helped them survive, short sweet and the teachers learned some important stuff. You have to train to support doctrine not freelance.

My gut tells me that this is not a approved training plan and not much though was put into it. I assume planning training is not this persons strong point.

Remember the 7 P’s
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Preformance !

 

[jsx1043]

Bringing in your local police department is not the best choice when it comes to training private, mostly unarmed (firearms) citizens to respond to an active killer incident. Most police officers only attend mandated training and rarely seek out training on their own dime and time. That mandated training will be focused on a law enforcement response to an active killer, not private citizens working in an educational, business or religious institution setting.

If you are tasked with coordinating active killer training, please seek out professional PRIVATE training!

Not true in the slightest, Jeff. Most police agencies that have active shooter/instructors are men and women who are very skilled at their job and take it seriously. Most have attended numerous trainings, including instructor/train-the-trainer sessions and continuing education. Not only the continuing education with top-tier instructors, but they get hundreds of hours a year actually delivering instruction. Police instructors are not necessarily focused on the police response but that response is a key factor in the overall scenario.

My agency teaches over 7,000 people a year in active shooter/killer response, and we’re not even the big boys in town.

Coming on here to shill your own company while disparaging LE is low. And you’re a cop, which makes it worse.

 

[Brad69]

You guys have to check this story from USA Today
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ns-mock-active-shooters-traumatic/3247173002/

I looked up this ALICE training I am kinda suspect of any TTP’s created by an individual.

Has it proven effective in the real world?

 

[Denny347]

Bringing in your local police department is not the best choice when it comes to training private, mostly unarmed (firearms) citizens to respond to an active killer incident. Most police officers only attend mandated training and rarely seek out training on their own dime and time. That mandated training will be focused on a law enforcement response to an active killer, not private citizens working in an educational, business or religious institution setting.

If you are tasked with coordinating active killer training, please seek out professional PRIVATE training!

Not true in the slightest, Jeff. Most police agencies that have active shooter/instructors are men and women who are very skilled at their job and take it seriously. Most have attended numerous trainings, including instructor/train-the-trainer sessions and continuing education. Not only the continuing education with top-tier instructors, but they get hundreds of hours a year actually delivering instruction. Police instructors are not necessarily focused on the police response but that response is a key factor in the overall scenario.

My agency teaches over 7,000 people a year in active shooter/killer response, and we’re not even the big boys in town.

Coming on here to shill your own company while disparaging LE is low. And you’re a cop, which makes it worse.

Your both right...and both wrong...to a degree
Guess it depends on WHO teaches and what you intend for the students to take away from it. The training objectives are vastly different between teaching unarmed citizens who never intend to become armed and are unlikely to have or develope the appropriate mindset to really fight back and training armed persons who intend on taking the fight to the shooters.

 

[Denny347]

You guys have to check this story from USA Today
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ns-mock-active-shooters-traumatic/3247173002/

I looked up this ALICE training I am kinda suspect of any TTP’s created by an individual.

Has it proven effective in the real world?

Looks similar to other trainings they just have a nice abbreviation for it. The article is just too much...traumatizing? Good Lord, just how emotionally fragile ARE these people?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

. IBTL

 

[Vigilant]

Now, “surprise drills” are traumatizing our precious little snowflakes? I wonder what a “surprise active shooter” will do? If you can’t teach’em because it’s too traumatic, let them die like sheep led to the slaughter. Anyone who has seen the New Zealand vids can tell you exactly what stuffing 20 people through a 36” door does.

 

[Selfpreservation]

Not true in the slightest, Jeff. Most police agencies that have active shooter/instructors are men and women who are very skilled at their job and take it seriously. Most have attended numerous trainings, including instructor/train-the-trainer sessions and continuing education. Not only the continuing education with top-tier instructors, but they get hundreds of hours a year actually delivering instruction. Police instructors are not necessarily focused on the police response but that response is a key factor in the overall scenario.

My agency teaches over 7,000 people a year in active shooter/killer response, and weÂ’re not even the big boys in town.

Coming on here to shill your own company while disparaging LE is low. And youÂ’re a cop, which makes it worse.

"Most police agencies that have active shooter/instructors are men and women who are very skilled at their job and take it seriously." - Skilled at teaching law enforcement response to law enforcement officers, maybe. But not so much at teaching schools, businesses, churches, etc.

"Most have attended numerous trainings, including instructor/train-the-trainer sessions and continuing education." - No, actually most have not attended numerous trainings, even fewer have attended train the trainer. And as you know, law enforcement trainer/instructor certifications are a joke. Most law enforcement instructor certs are only a week long school and VERY hard to fail. Few departments care. All they care about is the certification for liability reasons. So, unless the officer is willing to spend his/her own dime and time, and the majority won't, that cert doesn't mean much compared to what you can learn by going to private training companies.

"...but they get hundreds of hours a year actually delivering instruction." - Unless they are detailed full time to an academy, VERY FEW IF ANY law enforcement officers are teaching hundreds of hours of active shooter response to cops, let alone private citizens.

"Police instructors are not necessarily focused on the police response but that response is a key factor in the overall scenario." - Other than Run, Hide, Fight, that is what the overwhelming majority of leo active shooter instructors are teaching. Cop tactics to cops. Which is why a police department is a poor choice when it comes to training private citizens, especially involving force on force!

"Coming on here to shill your own company while disparaging LE is low. And youÂ’re a cop, which makes it worse." -Not sure I have ever seen the word shill used in a sentence. Interesting. However, used incorrectly in this case. I didn't say anything about training with us. I simply said the training should be with a private training company. There are hundreds of them across the country.

 

[Denny347]

"Most police agencies that have active shooter/instructors are men and women who are very skilled at their job and take it seriously." - Skilled at teaching law enforcement response to law enforcement officers, maybe. But not so much at teaching schools, businesses, churches, etc.

"Most have attended numerous trainings, including instructor/train-the-trainer sessions and continuing education." - No, actually most have not attended numerous trainings, even fewer have attended train the trainer. And as you know, law enforcement trainer/instructor certifications are a joke. Most law enforcement instructor certs are only a week long school and VERY hard to fail. Few departments care. All they care about is the certification for liability reasons. So, unless the officer is willing to spend his/her own dime and time, and the majority won't, that cert doesn't mean much compared to what you can learn by going to private training companies.

"...but they get hundreds of hours a year actually delivering instruction." - Unless they are detailed full time to an academy, VERY FEW IF ANY law enforcement officers are teaching hundreds of hours of active shooter response to cops, let alone private citizens.

"Police instructors are not necessarily focused on the police response but that response is a key factor in the overall scenario." - Other than Run, Hide, Fight, that is what the overwhelming majority of leo active shooter instructors are teaching. Cop tactics to cops. Which is why a police department is a poor choice when it comes to training private citizens, especially involving force on force!

"Coming on here to shill your own company while disparaging LE is low. And youÂ’re a cop, which makes it worse." -Not sure I have ever seen the word shill used in a sentence. Interesting. However, used incorrectly in this case. I didn't say anything about training with us. I simply said the training should be with a private training company. There are hundreds of them across the country.

I get what you are saying and I agree on much of it. It is true that most officers seek no training outside of the minimal hours required every year. However, there are many officers who DO seek additional training on their own dime even. They are the minority but that minority can have a HUGE impact on training other officers as well as civilians. Indeed there are plenty of officers teaching things they have no business teaching. But there are plenty of private training companies teaching things they have no business teaching. Neither side has a lock on poor training. If and LEO knows their audience and has a solid knowledge base, they sure can give quality training to non-LEO's. The inverse can also be true. A qualified non-LEO certainly can give valuable training to LEO's. I also agree that CERTIFIED does not mean QUALIFIED. I see it time and time again. Example, my 2 co-workers attended the ILEA Physical Tactics Instructor School and both were certified. Now one has been teaching tactics for our dept for 15 years and is nearly a SME in Use of Force. He just got around to getting State Certified. The other has ZERO background in tactics and decided to go through. They both have the same certification but we would all agree that they are not equal in abilities. In your opinion, what else should be taught to civilians other than the Run, Hide, Fight? The majority have no background in violence and are incapable of administering it if required. What should they do? Honest question I promise.

 

[d.kaufman]

 

[jsx1043]

"Most police agencies that have active shooter/instructors are men and women who are very skilled at their job and take it seriously." - Skilled at teaching law enforcement response to law enforcement officers, maybe. But not so much at teaching schools, businesses, churches, etc.

"Most have attended numerous trainings, including instructor/train-the-trainer sessions and continuing education." - No, actually most have not attended numerous trainings, even fewer have attended train the trainer. And as you know, law enforcement trainer/instructor certifications are a joke. Most law enforcement instructor certs are only a week long school and VERY hard to fail. Few departments care. All they care about is the certification for liability reasons. So, unless the officer is willing to spend his/her own dime and time, and the majority won't, that cert doesn't mean much compared to what you can learn by going to private training companies.

"...but they get hundreds of hours a year actually delivering instruction." - Unless they are detailed full time to an academy, VERY FEW IF ANY law enforcement officers are teaching hundreds of hours of active shooter response to cops, let alone private citizens.

"Police instructors are not necessarily focused on the police response but that response is a key factor in the overall scenario." - Other than Run, Hide, Fight, that is what the overwhelming majority of leo active shooter instructors are teaching. Cop tactics to cops. Which is why a police department is a poor choice when it comes to training private citizens, especially involving force on force!

"Coming on here to shill your own company while disparaging LE is low. And youÂ’re a cop, which makes it worse." -Not sure I have ever seen the word shill used in a sentence. Interesting. However, used incorrectly in this case. I didn't say anything about training with us. I simply said the training should be with a private training company. There are hundreds of them across the country.

You’re being disingenuous and disparaging on purpose, while providing no concrete statistics to back up your perception, which incidentally, based on your signature, attempts to sway the readers on the board that LE professionals are not to be trusted with this type of training. This behavior is exactly the definition of a “shill”...

[h=1]shill[/h]
[shil]Slang.
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR shill ON THESAURUS.COM

---

[h=3]noun[/h]a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others intoparticipating, as at a gambling house,auction, confidence game, etc.


a person who publicizes or praisessomething or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

[h=3]verb (used without object)[/h]to work as a shill:He shills for a large casino.

[h=3]verb (used with object)[/h]to advertise or promote (a product)as or in the manner of a huckster;hustle:He was hired to shill a new TV show.





While this may be your experience, it definitely does not shake out with the vast majority of LE training professionals who have chosen to teach active shooter/killer response. I can concede that some officers themselves may not take regular training seriously, but those that are instructors in this arena do. They DO seek out extra training and teach this stuff for the right reasons. Whether it be through LE or a COMPETENT private instructor, I want the knowledge out there. On the private side, unless you took out shooters at Mumbai, Aurora, Dallas or Virginia Tech, your credibility is pretty much nil. If someone has a military or LE background that has them involved in a real life two-way range, you can earn my attention. But as Denny said, some people aren’t cut out for it and the audience knows when they’re faking it. In my hundreds of hours of instruction and thousands of people trained (officers, students, teachers, office workers, college professors, retail employees and regular Joes) over the last 20 years, I sir, am most definitely NOT faking it. Don’t speak for me.

 

[Chase515]

Teachers are union in Indiana. They protect the mentaly ill snowflakes that voted for hillary and are democrat.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Teachers are union in Indiana. They protect the mentaly ill snowflakes that voted for hillary and are democrat.

So all of those that pay Union dues are mentally ill snowflakes and are Democrats.... Wow...

 

[Dead Duck]

So all of those that pay Union dues are mentally ill snowflakes and are Democrats.... Wow...

You're both right but I like the way you put it better.

 

[ditcherman]

Teachers are union in Indiana. They protect the mentaly ill snowflakes that voted for hillary and are democrat.

Your overgenralization does not serve you well. This is way off base. First, union memebership is not compulsory. Some join because they love the idea of the union, some don’t join at all, and some like my wife feel the need to join for the liability protection the union affords.
I assure you, my wife is not a snowflake.
People moan and groan about ‘kids these days’ but have no respect for people like my wife who pours herself into these kids, working many, many unseen unpaid hours. It is defenitly not ‘those who can’t, teach’.

 

[Selfpreservation]

I get what you are saying and I agree on much of it. It is true that most officers seek no training outside of the minimal hours required every year. However, there are many officers who DO seek additional training on their own dime even. They are the minority but that minority can have a HUGE impact on training other officers as well as civilians. Indeed there are plenty of officers teaching things they have no business teaching. But there are plenty of private training companies teaching things they have no business teaching. Neither side has a lock on poor training. If and LEO knows their audience and has a solid knowledge base, they sure can give quality training to non-LEO's. The inverse can also be true. A qualified non-LEO certainly can give valuable training to LEO's. I also agree that CERTIFIED does not mean QUALIFIED. I see it time and time again. Example, my 2 co-workers attended the ILEA Physical Tactics Instructor School and both were certified. Now one has been teaching tactics for our dept for 15 years and is nearly a SME in Use of Force. He just got around to getting State Certified. The other has ZERO background in tactics and decided to go through. They both have the same certification but we would all agree that they are not equal in abilities. In your opinion, what else should be taught to civilians other than the Run, Hide, Fight? The majority have no background in violence and are incapable of administering it if required. What should they do? Honest question I promise.

I don't necessarily dislike the Run, Hide, Fight theory, although I prefer a slightly different approach. (I made a post about it here: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...es-surviving-active-shooter-killer-event.html. ).

The Run, Hide, Fight type stuff is fine for short, presentation only training. My department has had me put on many of these presentations. It is very bare bones basic "training". It's usually conducted for a school, business etc. during a lunch break or a short period of time (under an hour) they blocked out for employees to attend. If that's all the company wants, then it's better than nothing. It takes very little training to be able to do one of these presentations.

The training they were doing in this article goes beyond a basic presentation. Once you start adding scenarios, use of force, decision making, first aid, etc., then the instructors need to be more experienced. Not only in the subject matter, which is the easy part. They need to be able to teach the material in a way that the majority of people with no background or capability to administer violence become capable.

 

[Clark & Addison]

Teachers are union in Indiana. They protect the mentaly ill snowflakes that voted for hillary and are democrat.

SOME teachers are union in Indiana. I am a non-union teacher in a public school. The union (not local, but state and national level) is so liberal I couldn't stand to have my money going to them.

 

[KokomoDave]

It is true that most unions throw their PAC money toward democrats. I belong to a huge union (UAW) and I opted to sign a waiver to make sure my $80.00 monthly dues do NOT go to those anti-gun socialistic bastages. Most union members have zero idea you can opt out. I am a conservative so my measly political sway goes to the GOP.

 

[Selfpreservation]

You’re being disingenuous and disparaging on purpose, while providing no concrete statistics to back up your perception, which incidentally, based on your signature, attempts to sway the readers on the board that LE professionals are not to be trusted with this type of training. This behavior is exactly the definition of a “shill”...

shill


[shil]Slang.
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR shill ON THESAURUS.COM

---

noun

a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others intoparticipating, as at a gambling house,auction, confidence game, etc.


a person who publicizes or praisessomething or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

verb (used without object)

to work as a shill:He shills for a large casino.

verb (used with object)

to advertise or promote (a product)as or in the manner of a huckster;hustle:He was hired to shill a new TV show.





While this may be your experience, it definitely does not shake out with the vast majority of LE training professionals who have chosen to teach active shooter/killer response. I can concede that some officers themselves may not take regular training seriously, but those that are instructors in this arena do. They DO seek out extra training and teach this stuff for the right reasons. Whether it be through LE or a COMPETENT private instructor, I want the knowledge out there. On the private side, unless you took out shooters at Mumbai, Aurora, Dallas or Virginia Tech, your credibility is pretty much nil. If someone has a military or LE background that has them involved in a real life two-way range, you can earn my attention. But as Denny said, some people arenÂ’t cut out for it and the audience knows when theyÂ’re faking it. In my hundreds of hours of instruction and thousands of people trained (officers, students, teachers, office workers, college professors, retail employees and regular Joes) over the last 20 years, I sir, am most definitely NOT faking it. DonÂ’t speak for me.

Mmmm..nope, you're still not using it correctly.

"...attempts to sway the readers on the board that LE professionals are not to be trusted with this type of training." - This however is true. There are very rare exceptions of course. The problem is, it's difficult for the uneducated to know what quality of training they are getting. At least with private companies, it's easier to figure that out. There are so many out there, the bad ones earn that reputation pretty quickly.

"...it definitely does not shake out with the vast majority of LE training professionals who have chosen to teach active shooter/killer response." - You couldn't be more wrong. The vast majority are exactly who I am talking about. The problem is, rather than raise their standards they just get upset when another cop actually calls them on it!

"...while disparaging LE is low. And youÂ’re a cop, which makes it worse." - Even worse, when I dare cross that "thin blue line" and talk about it publicly!

"Whether it be through LE or a COMPETENT private instructor, I want the knowledge out there." - We agree on something. But until the law enforcement community makes some serious changes when it comes to training, the private sector is the best choice.

"...your credibility is pretty much nil. - Interesting that someone with a made up screen name is talking credibility.

"In my hundreds of hours of instruction ..." Hundreds of hours and you are trying to talk about credibility!? I taught 300 hours last year just within my department ALONE! That doesn't include what I taught for other department's, academies or my company. I am WELL into the thousands if you want to start talking about the 15 yrs I have been teaching cops. Then if you want to add the 14 or so years of teaching martial arts, combatives, edged weapons and firearms long before becoming a cop & starting a business, then I will just say I feel pretty confident to speak about training!

I will close with this, then you can have the last say. You and I are clearly not going to agree on this topic, and that's ok. I have come to this forum for years without participating in the conversations/arguments. Now I chime in and offer my input on topics I feel qualified to speak on. If people learn something, great. If they don't agree with me, that's fine also. But I would caution, don't just disagree because it goes against something you have heard repeated over the years. Train with as many qualified instructors as you can and find your own truth.

Do not take anything I say as an attempt to bash cops. Quite the opposite. I want to change the culture of cops not wanting to train AND not being given quality training. Unfortunately, until the chiefs and sheriffs get on board, I don't see that happening. As you know, it's rarely the tactical, training minded go getters that become chief/sheriff. It's the politician types, and they aren't concerned with giving their officers the best training. They are only concerned with budgets and public opinion.

Best regards!