WHy All Guns Are Always Loaded

[indiucky]

You worded that statement correctly and differently than a lot of people. Lots of people "look" but fail to actually "see", it's where familiarity meets complacency.

I made that mistake once.....I still have nightmares about it...No ND or AD but two solid weeks of thinking a gun was unloaded that wasn't....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hmm, so if you actually pull the trigger a revolver is no safer than a 1911 or a striker fired gun, who knew???

Other than a magazine disconnect, what possible difference could there be in the context of an intentional trigger pull?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

I was at the front desk, reading and initialing blotter entries and other mundane housekeeping duties of a shift commander preparatory to reporting upstairs to roll call with my men when I heard it: the unmistakable muffled blast of a gunshot from somewhere in the building.

I ran for my shift's area like a bat out of hell, wanting and NOT wanting to determine what had happened, with my heart pounding like a jack hammer. Every shot fired has to come to rest somewhere. Where had this one stopped?

I burst into the room. My men were seated, unharmed, around the roll call table. My senior sergeant, a department veteran nearly twenty years my senior and a martial arts expert so proficient that he had once killed a crazed, psychotic suspect with only his nightstick, was standing with one of our Smith Model 65's in his hands, the look of disbelief still on his face.

It was Sunday, which was hands-on firearms inspection day, wherein a supervisor would inspect each man's sidearm for function, cleanliness, etc. This included pointing and dry-firing each piece towards the so-called "safe wall" where an accidental discharge would presumably do no harm.

I had an old cop on the shift with a drinking problem. We were on first shift and he was, predictably, hung over. The order was given to unload and he did so. He handed his piece to the sergeant who visually inspected the cylinder. Just as the sergeant pointed the revolver at the wall, the old copper looked at the cartridges in his hand.

There were five of them.

"Sarge!" It was too late, and the law of averages was against him. BOOM.

I looked at the bullet hole. It had struck the wall close to the frame of the door which was perpendicular to the "safe wall." Had I been walking through the door at the moment the sergeant pulled the trigger the bullet would have caught me in the head right about temple level. From that time on the sergeant was ribbed about his newfound method of creating a vacancy for promotion to lieutenant.

Our Model 65's were stainless and our cartridges nickel, and not brass, colored. The round was right in front of him and he simply didn't see it.

 

[rosejm]

Visual and physical check. I run my finger around the cylinder at the chamber openings, so I can both see and feel it's unloaded. We are taught to visually and physically check the chamber by our Range staff, and I just adapted it to revolvers as well.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BehindBlueI's again.

Double & triple check. Then still follow the 4 rules.

 

[actaeon277]

You worded that statement correctly and differently than a lot of people. Lots of people "look" but fail to actually "see", it's where familiarity meets complacency.

This.

I was in the back of a pickup truck, back in the day when you could do that, and I saw the driver look both directions before stepping on the gas at an intersection. And then he plowed right into the van that he didn't see, even though he looked right at it.

And the more people that check something, the less likely someone down the line is going to pick up on the failure of the previous person, because.. it's already been checked.

 

[Ddillard]

I grew up with firearms as part of a rite of passage and was taught the weapon is always hot. I always rack/press check as I hand it off and advise the other individual to do the same even after observing my check. First and foremost, always aim in a safe dirction while checking.

 

[IndyTom]

I grew up with firearms as part of a rite of passage and was taught the weapon is always hot. I always rack/press check as I hand it off and advise the other individual to do the same even after observing my check. First and foremost, always aim in a safe dirction while checking.

I do this with my children. Sometimes I will hand them a pistol with the slide locked open (no magazine, empty chamber) and sometimes I will make a point of checking it in front of them before handing it over closed. In either case, the expectation is that they verify, for themselves, that it is, in fact, not loaded (and I remind them of that if their first action with it appears to be anything other than a check).

 

[cosermann]

... Our Model 65's were stainless and our cartridges nickel, and not brass, colored. The round was right in front of him and he simply didn't see it.

Which is we verify the unloaded state via visual AND tactile means (which also works if verification has to be done in the dark, btw).

 

[Liberty Sanders]

I do this with my children. Sometimes I will hand them a pistol with the slide locked open (no magazine, empty chamber) and sometimes I will make a point of checking it in front of them before handing it over closed. In either case, the expectation is that they verify, for themselves, that it is, in fact, not loaded (and I remind them of that if their first action with it appears to be anything other than a check).

My late father used to do exactly the same thing.

 

[Ddillard]

I do this with my children. Sometimes I will hand them a pistol with the slide locked open (no magazine, empty chamber) and sometimes I will make a point of checking it in front of them before handing it over closed. In either case, the expectation is that they verify, for themselves, that it is, in fact, not loaded (and I remind them of that if their first action with it appears to be anything other than a check).

I hear that. Instill the safety factor. My dad used to say, "...check, recheck, and verify".

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

An object that will not stop the bullet isn't a safe direction, and cbhausen isn't rationalizing unsafe behavior. But you know that. You'd rather do your speech impediment shtick and play semantics, though.

How many times have you taken the case where he says "it wasn't loaded" so I pointed it at Billy Ray, DeShaun or Filberto and pulled the trigger?

The problem with giving in to the Aspies and ignoring the pedagogical tool of "all guns are always loaded" is that anywhere becomes "safe" because it's not loaded.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How many times have you taken the case where he says "it wasn't loaded" so I pointed it at Billy Ray, DeShaun or Filberto and pulled the trigger?

The problem with giving in to the Aspies and ignoring the pedagogical tool of "all guns are always loaded" is that anywhere becomes "safe" because it's not loaded.

We've had this discussion before. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded. You treat it the same. It's a gun. There is no reason to introduce the notion that loaded status matters. It doesn't. There is nothing I can do safely with an "unloaded" gun that I can't do a "loaded gun" or vice versa. Loaded status is 100% irrelevant as to how I handle a firearm. If it helps you to pretend it's loaded, fine, do that. Some folks are more literal minded and when you introduce the notion that it matters you simply invite the idea there are two ways to handle a gun.

When I taught my son gun safety before he was old enough to go to Kindergarten, I didn't teach him "it's always loaded". I taught him it's a gun. I armed him with a Savage Rascal single shot, and I loaded the gun while he was already on target. If, after he shot and was walking back to the table, he flagged himself or someone else, he didn't get to shoot for 5 minutes and he knew why. He learned very quickly the fun was over for awhile if he wasn't careful. He's about to be a teenager now and you can ask Indiucky how his gun safety skills are.

You know what? He's never asked me "is it loaded" when I handed him a gun because it's never occurred to him that it matters in how he can handle it. Indiucky asked him once if all guns were always loaded and he just got a quizzical look because...it doesn't matter. It's a gun.

I believe this approach of not letting the loaded/unloaded status to even enter the equation to be superior. Not simply as a matter of arguing semantics, but in leading to actual outcomes. Of course you can be safe by also pretending guns are loaded if that helps you, but there is a segment of the population that is too literal for that to work. You can make fun of them, brow beat them, etc. but that doesn't make them understand it because they don't think like you. A bright line "it's a gun" works for a wider array of people with different thought processes. No rules will reach 100% of people, of course, but I think eliminating the loaded/unloaded status reaches more.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

I read on INGO it doesn’t matter if it’s a Glock, you can throw it while chambered and have no worries of a ND. That was the entire reason I bought my 19

 

[actaeon277]

Well, there's a mistake where they say eject the magazine then pull the trigger, which is wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnkxqsYydqg
[video=youtube;gnkxqsYydqg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnkxqsYydqg[/video]

 

[cbhausen]

We've had this discussion before. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded. You treat it the same. It's a gun. There is no reason to introduce the notion that loaded status matters. It doesn't. There is nothing I can do safely with an "unloaded" gun that I can't do a "loaded gun" or vice versa. Loaded status is 100% irrelevant as to how I handle a firearm. If it helps you to pretend it's loaded, fine, do that. Some folks are more literal minded and when you introduce the notion that it matters you simply invite the idea there are two ways to handle a gun.

When I taught my son gun safety before he was old enough to go to Kindergarten, I didn't teach him "it's always loaded". I taught him it's a gun. I armed him with a Savage Rascal single shot, and I loaded the gun while he was already on target. If, after he shot and was walking back to the table, he flagged himself or someone else, he didn't get to shoot for 5 minutes and he knew why. He learned very quickly the fun was over for awhile if he wasn't careful. He's about to be a teenager now and you can ask Indiucky how his gun safety skills are.

You know what? He's never asked me "is it loaded" when I handed him a gun because it's never occurred to him that it matters in how he can handle it. Indiucky asked him once if all guns were always loaded and he just got a quizzical look because...it doesn't matter. It's a gun.

I believe this approach of not letting the loaded/unloaded status to even enter the equation to be superior. Not simply as a matter of arguing semantics, but in leading to actual outcomes. Of course you can be safe by also pretending guns are loaded if that helps you, but there is a segment of the population that is too literal for that to work. You can make fun of them, brow beat them, etc. but that doesn't make them understand it because they don't think like you. A bright line "it's a gun" works for a wider array of people with different thought processes. No rules will reach 100% of people, of course, but I think eliminating the loaded/unloaded status reaches more.

THIS... Game set and match. No one could say it better than you did right here. And now I know how to teach my kids when they get old enough. Thank you.

 

[Wild Deuce]

We've had this discussion before. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded. You treat it the same. It's a gun. There is no reason to introduce the notion that loaded status matters. It doesn't. There is nothing I can do safely with an "unloaded" gun that I can't do a "loaded gun" or vice versa. Loaded status is 100% irrelevant as to how I handle a firearm. If it helps you to pretend it's loaded, fine, do that. Some folks are more literal minded and when you introduce the notion that it matters you simply invite the idea there are two ways to handle a gun.

When I taught my son gun safety before he was old enough to go to Kindergarten, I didn't teach him "it's always loaded". I taught him it's a gun. I armed him with a Savage Rascal single shot, and I loaded the gun while he was already on target. If, after he shot and was walking back to the table, he flagged himself or someone else, he didn't get to shoot for 5 minutes and he knew why. He learned very quickly the fun was over for awhile if he wasn't careful. He's about to be a teenager now and you can ask Indiucky how his gun safety skills are.

You know what? He's never asked me "is it loaded" when I handed him a gun because it's never occurred to him that it matters in how he can handle it. Indiucky asked him once if all guns were always loaded and he just got a quizzical look because...it doesn't matter. It's a gun.

I believe this approach of not letting the loaded/unloaded status to even enter the equation to be superior. Not simply as a matter of arguing semantics, but in leading to actual outcomes. Of course you can be safe by also pretending guns are loaded if that helps you, but there is a segment of the population that is too literal for that to work. You can make fun of them, brow beat them, etc. but that doesn't make them understand it because they don't think like you. A bright line "it's a gun" works for a wider array of people with different thought processes. No rules will reach 100% of people, of course, but I think eliminating the loaded/unloaded status reaches more.

Excellent! Thoughtful response to the "You're arguing semantics!" accusation.

 

[Thor]

You guys are all on the same team yet find a way to argue anyway...must be INGO. Sort of like the 3 vs 4 vs X number of rules arguments when everyone is advocating being safe. something forest something trees.

 

[ATM]

 

[Thor]

Hey, if there are sammiches involved I'm all for it!