WHy All Guns Are Always Loaded

[Usmccookie]

We've had this discussion before. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded. You treat it the same. It's a gun. There is no reason to introduce the notion that loaded status matters. It doesn't. There is nothing I can do safely with an "unloaded" gun that I can't do a "loaded gun" or vice versa. Loaded status is 100% irrelevant as to how I handle a firearm. If it helps you to pretend it's loaded, fine, do that. Some folks are more literal minded and when you introduce the notion that it matters you simply invite the idea there are two ways to handle a gun.

When I taught my son gun safety before he was old enough to go to Kindergarten, I didn't teach him "it's always loaded". I taught him it's a gun. I armed him with a Savage Rascal single shot, and I loaded the gun while he was already on target. If, after he shot and was walking back to the table, he flagged himself or someone else, he didn't get to shoot for 5 minutes and he knew why. He learned very quickly the fun was over for awhile if he wasn't careful. He's about to be a teenager now and you can ask Indiucky how his gun safety skills are.

You know what? He's never asked me "is it loaded" when I handed him a gun because it's never occurred to him that it matters in how he can handle it. Indiucky asked him once if all guns were always loaded and he just got a quizzical look because...it doesn't matter. It's a gun.

I believe this approach of not letting the loaded/unloaded status to even enter the equation to be superior. Not simply as a matter of arguing semantics, but in leading to actual outcomes. Of course you can be safe by also pretending guns are loaded if that helps you, but there is a segment of the population that is too literal for that to work. You can make fun of them, brow beat them, etc. but that doesn't make them understand it because they don't think like you. A bright line "it's a gun" works for a wider array of people with different thought processes. No rules will reach 100% of people, of course, but I think eliminating the loaded/unloaded status reaches more.

I have never thought about it this way. My first reaction has always been, "is it loaded" I then proceed to treat the gun as if it we're loaded, regardless. My mindset was more of a showing of respect to those around me, and just a show of "hey look at me being safe" for a lack of a better way to put it.

The way this is put makes so much more sense across the board. I will try to shift my mindset to this line of thought. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Don't run cold ranges

Then how do you change targets with multiple people on the same range?

Visual and physical check. I run my finger around the cylinder at the chamber openings, so I can both see and feel it's unloaded. We are taught to visually and physically check the chamber by our Range staff, and I just adapted it to revolvers as well.

That's how I do it. Although I learned my lesson when breaking in/function testing a new pistol. Ran about 300 rnds through it, cleared, looked, then went to feel... Nice little doughnut shaped burn on the tip of my finger.

You worded that statement correctly and differently than a lot of people. Lots of people "look" but fail to actually "see", it's where familiarity meets complacency.

My granddad used to say "never believe anything you hear and only half of what you think you see".

We've had this discussion before. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded. You treat it the same. It's a gun. There is no reason to introduce the notion that loaded status matters. It doesn't. There is nothing I can do safely with an "unloaded" gun that I can't do a "loaded gun" or vice versa. Loaded status is 100% irrelevant as to how I handle a firearm. If it helps you to pretend it's loaded, fine, do that. Some folks are more literal minded and when you introduce the notion that it matters you simply invite the idea there are two ways to handle a gun.

While I generally agree, there are a few things I will do with a unloaded firearm compared to a loaded one. Dry fire in my home for instance. I do follow the rules as to know your target, what lies beyond, etc. But I'm not going to intentionally put rounds through my floor.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Then how do you change targets with multiple people on the same range?

Call a cease fire. Everyone stops handling weapons. Targets are changed. Resume fire order is given.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While I generally agree, there are a few things I will do with a unloaded firearm compared to a loaded one. Dry fire in my home for instance. I do follow the rules as to know your target, what lies beyond, etc. But I'm not going to intentionally put rounds through my floor.

There are lots of things I will do with an unloaded gun that I will not do with a loaded gun. I don't store loaded guns in my safe. I don't clean loaded guns. I don't change grips or sights on loaded guns. I don't put loaded guns in the hands of complete newbies just learning how to grip. But I *handle* the gun the same, and so are you. You are dry firing, but you're still handling it the same. You're using a safe back drop because it's a gun. You presumably aren't flagging yourself with it, because it's a gun. In that instance your using it for a purpose that requires it to be unloaded...but loaded/unloaded status is irrelevant in how you're handling it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We've had this discussion before. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or unloaded. You treat it the same. It's a gun. There is no reason to introduce the notion that loaded status matters.

Without question it does. Once you force the Aspies to admit that all guns are always loaded (hence the safe direction mandate) you take away their ability to wave the guns around.

People are lazy, undisciplined and reckless. They will want to do stupid things with firearms and then justify their stupidity. "Eet ain't low-dead" is the one that is use ad naseum.

It matters. It matters a lot. It's why it is the first rule.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Without question it does. Once you force the Aspies to admit that all guns are always loaded (hence the safe direction mandate) you take away their ability to wave the guns around.

People are lazy, undisciplined and reckless. They will want to do stupid things with firearms and then justify their stupidity. "Eet ain't low-dead" is the one that is use ad naseum.

It matters. It matters a lot. It's why it is the first rule.

I've taught plenty of people to handle a gun safely without playing pretend. So does the NRA. Try it. Maybe you won't see so many people who think unloaded matters.

https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/

No playing pretend required. Again, if it helps you, go for it. I've heard people who say they pretend there is a laser coming out of the muzzle that will chop off any living flesh it intersects. If that helps you, fine. Just don't confuse what helps you with something that's effective for everyone, or the only way to do it and those who don't follow your particular commandments are advocating unsafe handling. We aren't. We found a better way.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Call a cease fire. Everyone stops handling weapons. Targets are changed. Resume fire order is given.

Okay. That's about what I consider a cold range. I prefer unloading being an additional step, just in case of idiots. Even though it won't stop every idiot, it may stop some. But I can see it working in reverse with people who don't follow the rules when a gun is unloaded (or thought to be).

There are lots of things I will do with an unloaded gun that I will not do with a loaded gun. I don't store loaded guns in my safe. I don't clean loaded guns. I don't change grips or sights on loaded guns. I don't put loaded guns in the hands of complete newbies just learning how to grip. But I *handle* the gun the same, and so are you. You are dry firing, but you're still handling it the same. You're using a safe back drop because it's a gun. You presumably aren't flagging yourself with it, because it's a gun. In that instance your using it for a purpose that requires it to be unloaded...but loaded/unloaded status is irrelevant in how you're handling it.

Again I pretty much agree. But I consider pulling the trigger (or not) part of handling a gun. I have intentionally dry fired a gun in my house, I hope I never have to intentionally pulled the trigger on a loaded one. And hope I never do so unintentionally.

Without question it does. Once you force the Aspies to admit that all guns are always loaded (hence the safe direction mandate) you take away their ability to wave the guns around.

People are lazy, undisciplined and reckless. They will want to do stupid things with firearms and then justify their stupidity. "Eet ain't low-dead" is the one that is use ad naseum.

It matters. It matters a lot. It's why it is the first rule.

Do you ever dry fire to test the trigger? Or function check? Are you always on a firing range or somewhere were you would intentionally pull the trigger on a firearm that you knew was loaded if lethal force wasn't merited?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have intentionally dry fired a gun in my house, I hope I never have to intentionally pulled the trigger on a loaded one.

When you dry fire practice, how do you do it? Finger off the trigger until ready to fire? Sights on an object you don't mind destroying? Not flagging yourself? Etc?
When you live fire practice, how do you do it? Finger off the trigger until ready to fire? Sights on an object you don't mind destroying? Not flagging yourself? Etc?

I dry fire into a book case in front of a stone wall. I don't *want* to shoot the book case, but I don't *mind* if I shoot the bookcase, vs the other things I could destroy. It's a safe backdrop.

Same handling. Different outcome, but same handling.

 

[LarryC]

Call a cease fire. Everyone stops handling weapons. Targets are changed. Resume fire order is given.

I agree, but the club I belong too goes one step farther! They require that you insert a flag into the chamber of all firearms when the
range is called cold. I carry all my firearms to the range (or any time I am transporting) except my EDC, with flags in the chamber...

 

[ATM]

Just keep your failed metaphors pointed in a safe direction, Kirk.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

When you dry fire practice, how do you do it? Finger off the trigger until ready to fire? Sights on an object you don't mind destroying? Not flagging yourself? Etc?
When you live fire practice, how do you do it? Finger off the trigger until ready to fire? Sights on an object you don't mind destroying? Not flagging yourself? Etc?

I dry fire into a book case in front of a stone wall. I don't *want* to shoot the book case, but I don't *mind* if I shoot the bookcase, vs the other things I could destroy. It's a safe backdrop.

Same handling. Different outcome, but same handling.

Yep I do all those things. And I do agree with what you are saying. What I'm saying is that pulling the trigger or not is part of gun handling. Would you intentionally pull the trigger on a loaded firearm with all the other variables followed in your house unless you had to? If not you handle an unloaded gun differently.

 

[ATM]

...What I'm saying is that pulling the trigger or not is part of gun handling...

Pulling the trigger once you're ready for the possibility of discharging a round is not itself a safe gun handling violation.

Pulling the trigger before you're ready is, whether the gun is loaded or not.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Pulling the trigger once you're ready for the possibility of discharging a round is not itself a safe gun handling violation.

Pulling the trigger before you're ready is, whether the gun is loaded or not.

Not arguing that at all.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Would you intentionally pull the trigger on a loaded firearm with all the other variables followed in your house unless you had to? If not you handle an unloaded gun differently.

No, I don't. I handle it the same. I abide by all the same rules. I don't flag myself, I don't put my finger on the trigger before I'm ready to "shoot", I use a safe backdrop, I don't scratch my chin with it, I don't stare down the barrel, etc. ATM's got it:

Pulling the trigger once you're ready for the possibility of discharging a round is not itself a safe gun handling violation.

Pulling the trigger before you're ready is, whether the gun is loaded or not.

I don't pull the trigger on a loaded gun pointed at my book case because I don't want loud noise and a damaged book. Not because it's unsafe. I could discharge a full magazine into my book case, and the worst that will happen is damaged books and dry wall, there's bedford stone on the other side. If I decided to release my inner Elvis and shoot a book that irritated me, my handling would be the same.

My handling is the same. My desired outcome is not.

TL;dr: Loaded/unloaded matters for desired outcome. It does not matter for safe handling.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

No, I don't. I handle it the same. I abide by all the same rules. I don't flag myself, I don't put my finger on the trigger before I'm ready to "shoot", I use a safe backdrop, I don't scratch my chin with it, I don't stare down the barrel, etc. ATM's got it:

I don't pull the trigger on a loaded gun pointed at my book case because I don't want loud noise and a damaged book. Not because it's unsafe. I could discharge a full magazine into my book case, and the worst that will happen is damaged books and dry wall, there's bedford stone on the other side. If I decided to release my inner Elvis and shoot a book that irritated me, my handling would be the same.

My handling is the same. My desired outcome is not.

TL;dr: Loaded/unloaded matters for desired outcome. It does not matter for safe handling.

I'm not saying you do anything with an unloaded gun that would be unsafe to do with a loaded one, not at all. I do my best to do the same. Perhaps we just have different personal definitions of handling. Or perhaps we are just looking at it differently. Or quite possibly a bit of both. Although I think more of the first. You said you don't change grips/adjust sight/clean/etc a loaded firearm, all of those require handling it. I'm sure you can do all of those things safely with a loaded firearm as well, with perhaps the exception of cleaning and that is due to physical limitation not safety issues. So you are handling an unloaded firearm differently than you would a loaded one. I think I'm using a more general definition of handling a gun vs you using a more specific definition of safe handling.

 

[bigbaloo95]

My late father used to do exactly the same thing.

I have done that with my son since he was in the third grade. If I saw anything unsafe we packed up and went back to the house, never firing a shot a few times. After a couple of those range trips got cut short he realized if he was diligent about his safety we would shoot to his hearts content.

 

[cedartop]

A couple of articles from people who were there.

https://safetysolutionsacademy.com/lessons-from-a-negligent-discharge-at-mag-40/

What Do I Think About The ND At MAG-40? ? Ballistic Radio

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A couple of articles from people who were there.

https://safetysolutionsacademy.com/lessons-from-a-negligent-discharge-at-mag-40/

What Do I Think About The ND At MAG-40? ? Ballistic Radio

[FONT=&quot]In my experience, cold ranges, can foster a mentality that the unloaded gun can be handled with a different set of rules than the loaded gun...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A simple protest of, “the condition of the gun is irrelevant to this situation” could have spurred a conversation to help and dispel the cold range mentality that had developed...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The condition of your gun shouldn’t change how you handle it.[/FONT]

- first link

So introducing the concept that loaded status matters can actually cause some people to believe there are two ways to handle a gun? If only there was a better way...

 

[Steel and wood]

BB your post #33 is dead nut on. You put it perfect it’s a gun,loaded empty it’s a damn gun treat it like a gun. Wish I had done this with my kids when they were starting out. Just makes since. That way you never hear it’s unloaded I checked!
Thanks for your thoughts but only 34 yrs late. But will discuss with my kids about the grandkids.

 

[ATM]

It's not always clear who the "drooling retards" and "Aspies" are in these discussions of safe gun handling and, specifically, the pedagogy of such, but the ALL STOVES ARE ALWAYS HOT! adherents seem to run out of sound reasoning to support its inclusion pretty quickly these days.