Why do I keep hearing people say 9mm is not adequate for home/self defense?

[churchmouse]

I don't think it's an issue of the 9 being adequate for home defense as much as it that others are MORE adequate.

The Thompson-LaGarde inquiry, which was motivated by the failure of the .38 Long Colt as a defensive round in army revolvers during the Phillipine Insurrection, was probably the most comprehensive handgun effectiveness study in history.

They found that of various handgun projectile variables (bullet weight, material, shape, velocity and diameter) the LEAST important was bullet velocity, and the MOST important was bullet diameter. Large variations in velocity had almost no effect, whereas very small variations in diameter had a marked effect on projectile effectiveness. Their report therefore recommended that whatever handgun replaced the .38 revolver, it should be chambered for a projectile of .45 caliber weighing 230 grains.

Is the 9mm adequate for home defense? In the hands of someone properly trained who can hit what they aim at, of course it is. I carried a 6906 on the job and I was confident in my abilities. I was not confident in the gun...I was confident in my ability to use it.

Do I carry one? Very rarely. In my law enforcement career I simply saw too many failures of the .38/9mm family under circumstances where they should NOT have failed.

The most extreme case involved a psychotic individual who absorbed EIGHTEEN ROUNDS of .38 Special +P+ ammo before the shots took effect, and yes, some but not all of the shots hit vital areas. Fortunately there were three officers present all firing. Had there only been one (this was still the day of the six-shooter) he would not have survived the encounter.

My personal carry guns are all .44's or .45's.

Well stated. That has been my argument every time this comes up and it does come up a lot. 9mm works just fine if used properly. 45 ACP works just a bit better in the right hands. Use either improperly and and they both fail.
I think this was made clear to me when the Pope was shot 5 times point blank with a 9mm. I know he is close to God and all but really, 5 times.

 

[ghitch75]

WOW!!!....i'm in the top 4.24%

 

[9mmfan]

Why do I keep hearing people say 9mm is not adequate for home/self defense?


Because their idiots.

 

[Clay]

because apparently a 0.354" hole isn't large enough

 

[atvdave]

I still say, let me shoot ya with a 9mm and see how not dead you are???

 

[ghitch75]

because apparently a 0.354" hole isn't large enough

.452 is better in my book....

 

[Bunnykid68]

the difference between 9mm and a .45 is 2.5mm and 83gr. Seems to me the biggest effect difference is the mass of the projectile and the energy dump because of it, any studies out there that equates them on these differences?

 

[churchmouse]

.45 at 9 rounds, vs 9mm at 18 rounds.

.45 = .451" = 0.1598 in^2
9mm = .356" = 0.09954 in^2

9*0.1598 = 1.438 in^2 of holes for 45

18*0.09954 = 1.792 in^2 of holes for 9mm

So if they both don't expand, 9mm still wins.

Not sure what all this math means (public school) but it has to equate to something about what you said.....Yes....

 

[atvdave]

But are you less dead being shot with a 9mm vs a .45?

 

[churchmouse]

But are you less dead being shot with a 9mm vs a .45?

Dead is dead....no doubt in my mind.
I got shot with a BB gun once and it really hurt with no "Hole"
I was shot at with some pi$$ A$$ little gun by a guy steeling the wheels off my Vette and it scared me near to death. Can only imagine what the real deal would feel like.

 

[SSGSAD]

My OLD S&W Model 59, that I bought in 1979, is MY EDC...

 

[HARVEYtheDAMNED]

If you know how to use it, ANY firearm can be used effectively in home defense.

In my house, we keep a 12 gauge shotgun and a .22lr carbine for home defense. My girlfriend can't keep the 12 gauge on target, but she can put all 30 rounds of .22 in the bad guy, at ranges much longer than our home. It's all about what you as an individual are capable with.

 

[Robjps]

I say anyone who dosn't think the 9mm is enough should volunter to get shot with it. Hell I wouldn't want to ge shot with a .22 anywhere on my body

Hell let them wear a vest and take a round. When their ribs ache for days ask them what they think about it.

 

[Fixer]

Most popular calibers 9mm and up perform about the same. Shot placement is by far the most critical determining factor for effective neutralization of the target. Besides who can argue with a gun that can hold 20 rounds of your favorite Hollow Points!!

 

[VikingWarlord]

Besides who can argue with a gun that can hold 20 rounds of your favorite Hollow Points!!

Several people in this thread, apparently.

 

[Hohn]

I think about it as the shooter having to do his part and the bullet having to do its part.

-- If I do my part, will the bullet do its part (maximize probability of incapacitation)?
-- Is the caliber helping me do my part (getting a bullet on target) or hindering?
-- How well can the bullet do its part under ideal conditions? Under less-than ideal circumstances?
-- Does the range of available bullet weights and designs let me optimize the compromise for my particular conditions?


A simple yes/no question on the 9mm's sufficiency is, dare I say, absurd. Nothing related to caliber and gun choice is ever that simple. That's these arguments persist, and will remain unresolved.

Personally, I prefer the 10mm family: .40, .357SIG, etc. I've read the FBI report from November 1989 that documented the testing of the 10mm (at power levels that are equivalent to modern .40SW-- NOT full power 10mm, which the FBI never tested). This family of calibers gives you a hugely wide range of options to choose-- from a flyweight .357 (9mm) bullet trucking at 1700fps to a bruiser 220gr hardcast 10mm at 1200fps. In this family, you can shoot bullets from 85gr to 220 grain at velocities from 950fps to 1700+.

Though the FBI's exhaustive testing crowned the "10mm lite" (aka .40SW) king, it barely nudged the .45, with 95% performance vs 92% for the .45. But both cartridges blew away the 9mm which only had 67.5% performance (being defined as >12" penetration in various test media and barriers).


Somewhat related: the popularity of the .40 among LEOs means that most of the best JHP loads are available in .40, sometimes only in .40. A Ranger T or Federal HST isn't made in every caliber in every weight, but certainly in a 180gr .40SW.


I'll make this analogy: I'm a mopar guy. I love old Chryslers and hope to build one someday. But the Gm LS engine is SO good and SO cheap that I cannot justify building a Mopar engine on a bang/buck basis. So I am now an LS engine fan. It really boils down to cylinder heads. To get the performance of LS cyl heads, you have to run an LS engine. That means GM transmissions and often a GM car.

I'll have a sentimental place for Mopars always-- but I will spend my money on a GM LS because that's what the rational thing to do is. It doesn't mean the Mopar doesn't work or can't be made to be fast.


That's how I view the 10mm/.40/.357 family versus the 9mm and .45. There's nothing wrong with the 9mm and the .45. It's just that a modern round has a lot of advancements to appreciate-- primarily bullet design and availability.

I don't view the 9mm as insufficient (though agent Jerry Dove's widow might, since his perfectly placed 9mm round failed to stop Platt in the 1986 Miami shootout). I just think that .40 and .45 are better suited to the task.

In my view, the 10mm is king. I can make my case, but only you can decide.

BTW-- my first post here. Nice forum, and I'm sure I'll learn a ton!

 

[Hohn]

By the way, I have a .pdf of the FBI's 10mm testing if anyone wants a copy of the 1989 document. I thought it rather interesting to read the document that almost singlehandedly moved the LEO market towards the .40SW.

 

[Win52C]

Because some people really enjoy the sound of their own voice.

You hit that one on the head!

 

[Bahbo]

By the way, I have a .pdf of the FBI's 10mm testing if anyone wants a copy of the 1989 document. I thought it rather interesting to read the document that almost singlehandedly moved the LEO market towards the .40SW.

I'll take a copy. Send me your email via pm as I cannot pm yet.

Thanks

Bahbo

 

[Fixer]

I don't view the 9mm as insufficient (though agent Jerry Dove's widow might, since his perfectly placed 9mm round failed to stop Platt in the 1986 Miami shootout). I just think that .40 and .45 are better suited to the task.

By perfectly placed do you mean the apricot sized target over your nose that is the only shot that will instantly stop an attacker. Any other shot from any caliber short of say 20mm rifle will not instantly neutralize an attacker. Thats why shot placement is far more important than caliber when comparing the 9mm, 357, 40, 10mm, or the 45.

It is like a drag race - the time from first place to last place could be only thousands of a second. It is such a small difference that its hard to measure any real difference.