Willy Graham. The other side of the coin.

[Itchytriggerfinger]

That's a common Athiest belief, and doesn't hold up to even the most cursory of examinations. It typically devolves into a numbers fight, with casualty counts from Socialist/Communist lead killing programs vs religious wars, but even that misses the point.

Men fight and kill regardless of the presence of religion. I'd invite you to read "The Dark Side of Man" https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Man-Helix-Books/dp/0738203157 and see the roots of violence, from wars to individual killing, and how completely necessary it has been in the development of mankind. Apes fight wars and murder, and as best we can tell they have no religion. They fight for the same reason we do, for resources. Religion (and state) are often used as excuses for resource wars, but all wars are resource wars at their most basic level. Religion is often a cover, a window dressing justification, but even the Crusades were not truly about religion any more than European incursion into "Native America" was really about converting the "savages" to Christianity. It's just a nicer way of saying "we want their land" or "I need to consolidate political and economic power".

If God's only son was murdered for political beliefs (claimed to be a king) and not for our sins, I'll concede that wars aren't religiously responsible.

Regardless, I'll read the book and thank you for offering the link.

 

[indiucky]

Ugh. This crap. Again.

Graham wasn't one of the bad ones...and there are bad ones. Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, Creflo Dollar, "Rabbi" Rod Parsons...these guys just ooze charlatanism. As an atheist I've always joked that we can smell one of our own, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out, when pressed, these (latter) listed celebrity preachers don't actually hold the values they preach.

But not Graham...I never got the feeling he was "faking" it for views. I think he was a natural showman and a shrewd businessman, but also a believer in his work and the message.

You know Brother I was praying for you to show up....Did you maybe feel a nudge from on High?

Thanks for coming in.....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yours is another opinion I think highly of so I read that with an open mind. I can truly disseminate those that truly believe and those that believe for convenience and you sir, are the former. I'm both humbled and saddened that to feel whole, you need that in your life.

It's true that your God has done little to persuade me of his existence.

Well, I appreciate it even if I can't imagine why you'd find it saddening.

I know there's plenty here who disagree, but I think one of the reasons for the decline in faith is the insistence on combining it with literal science. I know I'm throwing out a reading list here, but if I could recommend one more I'd look at Karen Armstrong's "A History of God". https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DB6LSG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

If nothing else, it might help you understand those who do have faith and reduce the hostility you feel toward religion and/or faith. It really fleshes out a very core tenant for me. It's actually impossible to be an Athiest. You can't define God, and it's impossible to disbelieve in something you can't even define. You can disbelieve in a particular iteration of God, sure. You can disbelieve in any number of specific interpretations. You can disbelieve in a Abrahamic God, you can disbelieve in Vishnu, etc., but those are specific definitions, regardless of if you take them as literal or allegorical. We are finite, we cannot really say what God is and encompass the entirety. Armstrong talks about an earlier pre-modern science belief that we can only approach what God is by saying what God isn't. God isn't.... God isn't constrained my by sense of time. God isn't an entity as I understand the concept, as the infinite can't be contained in such a finite concept, etc. etc.

 

[indiucky]

Regardless, I'll read the book and thank you for offering the link.

BBI and I do not share the same Faith but we share the same creed (among other things...Like fried chicken wings...)

You'll get no bad advice from my Brother BBI.....Heart of Gold....

 

[churchmouse]

Well, I gave up on the organized church year and years ago for my own reasons not for a lack of believing. I am a strong example of the power of prayer. I have shared this many times here and will not burden this thread with it again but please believe I am here from that power.

I work as a part time maint. man for a decent sized church that was started in its own path and views on God and I see it filled with some really good people.
I am not a member but an employee. I take care of the 25 plus HVAC systems and all heavy maint. I save them mega dollars through these activity's but I am not a member. Nor will I ever again be one at any church.

But we speak to God (Our deity of choice) daily. That is the path we choose. We do not fault or bash any other chosen path folks take. It is a personal choice.
In this I will not be looked down on/belittled or called any names. It has proven very uncomfortable for the few who have in the past. Take that as you will. But do remember it.

Believe or dont. But never look down on those who do or do not from a point of being superior. You (anyone) are not. You can believe that.

 

[PaulF]

You know Brother I was praying for you to show up....Did you maybe feel a nudge from on High.....

Thanks for coming in.....

No nudge, sorry. Maybe next time, though.

This discussion requires nuance.

There is an argument that religion does great harm, and it centers around how religion can erode an individual's ability to identify and interact with objective reality, and how that impaired ability might be exploited for personal (or institutional) gain. It's an important conversation to have, especially in this era of media saturation and increased crowding in the marketplace for our attention.

...of course, that's not the conversation we're having here, and I'm not interested in shouting soundbites at each other.

 

[Leadeye]

On my desk at home where I work are two dusters, two candle sticks, and the computer monitor. One on the left is a white obelisk which to me represents knowledge, on the right is a crucifix which represents faith. When knowledge comes to an end you have to have something to believe in to make decisions, and for me that's faith.

There's a line in the movie Kingdom of Heaven where the Hospitaller Knight (David Thewlis) says he puts no stock in religion after hearing that Bailien (Orlando Bloom) has lost his. By religion he says he's seen the lunacy of fanatics, but thinks that what God desires is in the head and in the heart and what Balien does every day will determine if he was a good man or not.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No nudge, sorry. Maybe next time, though.

This discussion requires nuance.

There is an argument that religion does great harm, and it centers around how religion can erode an individual's ability to identify and interact with objective reality, and how that impaired ability might be exploited for personal (or institutional) gain. It's an important conversation to have, especially in this era of media saturation and increased crowding in the marketplace for our attention.

...of course, that's not the conversation we're having here, and I'm not interested in shouting soundbites at each other.

*Any* grouping or association has that potential. The concept of state very much holds that power, but I'm sure you're aware of psychological experiments were people are assigned a random team and immediately identify more with the strangers also assigned that random team than the strangers randomly assigned a different random team. They will rate their fellow "blue team" members as more competent, socialize more heavily "off duty" with the "blue team", and band together socially against "the red team".

As humans, we can use these constructs to connect or to divide.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Well, I gave up on the organized church year and years ago for my own reasons not for a lack of believing. I am a strong example of the power of prayer. I have shared this many times here and will not burden this thread with it again but please believe I am here from that power.

I work as a part time maint. man for a decent sized church that was started in its own path and views on God and I see it filled with some really good people.
I am not a member but an employee. I take care of the 25 plus HVAC systems and all heavy maint. I save them mega dollars through these activity's but I am not a member. Nor will I ever again be one at any church.

But we speak to God (Our deity of choice) daily. That is the path we choose. We do not fault or bash any other chosen path folks take. It is a personal choice.
In this I will not be looked down on/belittled or called any names. It has proven very uncomfortable for the few who have in the past. Take that as you will. But do remember it.

Believe or dont. But never look down on those who do or do not from a point of being superior. You (anyone) are not. You can believe that.

And I thank you for taking that stand. Respect for others is something that we can give everyone whether they agree with us or not.

I work in a large company with people from every walk of life, who are very different than me. I work with homosexuals, athiests, christians, agnostics, alcoholics, and anywhere in between.
I am a Christian, and everyone who I work with knows that.
I do not force my religion or opinions on anyone, but have had several co-workers ask me personal/religious questions.
There is no question where I stand personally, but I do my best to treat everyone with respect regardless whether they agree with my personal beliefs.

This has opened up many opportunities to discuss with my co-workers what makes me different. Some have shown genuine curiosity, and some have even accompanied me to church. Some probably think I'm narrow minded or crazy.

But I still treat everyone with respect, and I also expect the same treatment from those who disagree with me.

 

[indiucky]

...of course, that's not the conversation we're having here, and I'm not interested in shouting soundbites at each other.

Me neither...I do think the conversation has gotten a little better though....Good to see you in, nudge or no...

 

[hoosierdoc]

That was actually a good read, other than the author had a personal bone to pick.... or....a De-Bone.
As much as they tried, none of that painted Graham any other way than a good solid Christian.

Did I miss something?

Right? The Bible is. It is not updated for social trends. And yet still perfectly applicable.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Really? That’s poor taste.

I agree. Nobody should be lumped together with a school shooter.

Itchy, here’s the thing. You are trying to get banned. Please just outright ask for it and be done rather than pissing off a good portion of the users here before you go.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Billy Graham’s charity raised over a hundred million dollars annually for years and years. In 2000 his salary was $209,000. As chairman of a $100m enterprise. He could have easily been worth 10 times what he was. The guy lived for others, not himself.

That man has more class in his toenail clippings than some here seem to have.

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

Itchy, here’s the thing. You are trying to get banned. Please just outright ask for it and be done rather than pissing off a good portion of the users here before you go.

My Mod is a benevolent Mod.


That's an incorrect assumption sir. I rather enjoy it here and accept your tolerance as a show of good faith.

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

Billy Graham’s charity raised over a hundred million dollars annually for years and years. In 2000 his salary was $209,000. As chairman of a $100m enterprise. He could have easily been worth 10 times what he was. The guy lived for others, not himself.

That man has more class in his toenail clippings than some here seem to have.

I believe that's called a tax shelter.

 

[HoughMade]

I believe that's called a tax shelter.

Add “tax shelters” to the things you misunderstand.

 

[indiucky]

I believe that's called a tax shelter.

Not according to the dictionary...Some donations are considered deductions but not a "shelter".....

 

[indiucky]

Hough and I in synch post mode...Cool...

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

Clearly there's an agree to disagree moment in here somewhere. I'm not religious but I forgive all those that transgressed me and I apologize for my transgressions. That should just about end this nonsense right?

 

[Rookie]

Add “tax shelters” to the things you misunderstand.