Willy Graham. The other side of the coin.

[Itchytriggerfinger]

You said it would sound familiar. I'm agreeing with you

I think trying to insinuate that statement was anything like gun control is absurd especially from someone so scholarly. It's ironic that anything contrarian is met with anecdotal assimilations.

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

I don't know. I was raised Catholic, and it was implied earlier that we all approve of child molestation.

That's not implied.

 

[BugI02]

But there's no civil tolerance for non believers?

I appreciate the invite but I'm going to have to politely decline. I have zero doubt in my mind that you're a good guy and I don't begrudge you for one second about your beliefs. But you can't want people to honor your beliefs without honoring theirs.

You have as much as told us that your belief is "Do as thou wilt". Even were we not Christians, we could not "honour" your beliefs because you believe in nothing. Some people, who think they alone should decide what they can and cannot do, are one of the reasons I own and carry guns

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

You have as much as told us that your belief is "Do as thou wilt". Even were we not Christians, we could not "honour" your beliefs because you believe in nothing. Some people, who think they alone should decide what they can and cannot do, are one of the reasons I own and carry guns

When you quote me, you should make an attempt to do it correctly.

And I carry guns because of religion which has caused more death on this planet than anything else.

 

[indiucky]

I think trying to insinuate that statement was anything like gun control is absurd especially from someone so scholarly. It's ironic that anything contrarian is met with anecdotal assimilations.

We hear you Itchy....God's love keeps pulling you back into these threads....We love you man....Just open up...You got my number..I'll help you through it...

Looks like Billy Graham may have touched two more lives before he left for Kingdom....We love and welcome you and Cayce...God loves you both....So do we...

 

[Hoosierdood]

As I said I am NOT a bible scholar. Looks like you may be, or did you just come from a family that supported that TV fraud?

Did he claim to be something that he wasn’t? Where is the evidence of fraud?

Still waiting for answers to my first questions.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Or, hear me out, he led a lot of people down a rabbit hole that they're so blinded by, they can't see the rational side of life. I've known good men who didn't believe but they lived a life where good deeds were a life choice and not something shoved down their throat on Sundays. I've seen evil in men who kill women and children one day and pray the next.

If you need someone to tell you how to live the right way, you weren't raised the right way. Praying to an imaginary figure is about as productive as wishing someone would mow your yard. Nothing happens unless you are the driver of the results you want. I've been called holier than thou and that's laughable to me because to consider yourself holier than anyone, you need to believe in something holy. The only thing I believe in is men are capable of good and evil and there isn't an outside source responsible for that.

This isn't offensive and if someone gets offended, that should make it painfully obvious that while maybe not 100% right, I'm not 100% wrong either.

Even ignoring the fact that a sizable portion of our population isn't raised the right way (or raised at all, parents being absent, apathetic, or out chasing the next high) religion is more than what you seem to have boiled it down to. Hypocrisy is part of the human condition, and discarding religion because some adherents do evil and all adherents fail to live up to the ideal is neither intellectually honest or fair.

Why the need to tear down someone else's religion due to your own lack of belief or belief in something different? If it makes someone a better person, makes them more aware of their own actions and how it affects others, or brings them some level of peace from their own inner demons, why try to strip that from them? Generally for two reasons, I think. One is from a feeling of superiority, I'm smarter than you because I believe different things than you believe. The other is because the person has been frustrated and felt let down by religion. They've decided the failing must be with religion as a whole, it's all a fraud, because what they were taught didn't work for them. I suspect from the "shoving down the throat" comment, at least the second applies to you. You can't force anyone to faith, it'll simply cause resentment. It's a change from the inside.

If I was raised right or not is debatable, but I find "praying to an imaginary figure" quite productive. It reminds me of my connection to something larger, my connection to others, and firms my resolve and commitment. It has made a significant impact in my life, and given I've known me my entire life I feel comfortable saying I'm a better person for it.

That connection, that sense of community and brotherhood, is sadly lacking in modern society and continues to degrade. It's not really a religion problem, it's a societal change problem. Fewer and fewer small towns, more people living in anonymous large cities were you get lost in the crowds, a lifestyle that's increasingly "virtual world" centered, etc. One of the most moving experiences of my life was going to the Sagrada Familia cathedral in Barcelona. I'm not Christian, so a Catholic cathedral is not "my" house. But I was welcome there, and I felt the connection with generations of men who were connected to that beautiful building. It's not just stone and glass, it's the life's work of men who knew they'd be long dead before their work was completed. Gaudi, the architect, famously brushed aside concerns of the multi-generation construction schedule with "My client is not in a hurry". Sitting there, admiring it, you *feel* that connection to man and God.

Life without faith leaves a hole, something will inevitably fill it. Of course you can be a good person without religion, or a specific religion, and some worthwhile secular cause can fill that hole. I admittedly derive as much sense of identity and purpose from my role as a father, husband, and LEO as I do from my religion, but I would be less whole without any of those pieces. I could survive, I could be "good", but I wouldn't be whole.

Billy Graham brought that "wholeness" to many, many people. I won't begrudge him his financial success, he earned it. I don't look at a cathederal or mosque and say "how many sandwiches could that have bought the poor?" I wonder how many generations of mankind it has touched, and been a bright spot in their lives. Billy Graham was that bright spot for many, and that $25 million is a bargain for what he did.

 

[jbombelli]

That's not implied.

Okay. Stated outright. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Must be that civil tolerance you're asking for but not willing to extend.

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

If I'm ever down your way I would love to stop in and purchase your wares. The phone call won't happen though but I truly appreciate the offer. It speaks highly of your civility and humanity.

 

[indiucky]

And I carry guns because of religion which has caused more death on this planet than anything else.

Not in the 20th century itchy....It's easy to look up...Atheism is the Grand Champion of the 20th Century and in numbers that pale to all previous centuries...


We love you Buddy...hang in there....

 

[indiucky]

If I'm ever down your way I would love to stop in and purchase your wares. The phone call won't happen though but I truly appreciate the offer. It speaks highly of your civility and humanity.

God Bless you Sir....Just a former Agnostic Hillbilly trying to help a brother out.....No need to purchase wares....

 

[BugI02]

When you quote me, you should make an attempt to do it correctly.

And I carry guns because of religion which has caused more death on this planet than anything else.

Actually, I was quoting Crowley quoting Rabelais

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

Even ignoring the fact that a sizable portion of our population isn't raised the right way (or raised at all, parents being absent, apathetic, or out chasing the next high) religion is more than what you seem to have boiled it down to. Hypocrisy is part of the human condition, and discarding religion because some adherents do evil and all adherents fail to live up to the ideal is neither intellectually honest or fair.

Why the need to tear down someone else's religion due to your own lack of belief or belief in something different? If it makes someone a better person, makes them more aware of their own actions and how it affects others, or brings them some level of peace from their own inner demons, why try to strip that from them? Generally for two reasons, I think. One is from a feeling of superiority, I'm smarter than you because I believe different things than you believe. The other is because the person has been frustrated and felt let down by religion. They've decided the failing must be with religion as a whole, it's all a fraud, because what they were taught didn't work for them. I suspect from the "shoving down the throat" comment, at least the second applies to you. You can't force anyone to faith, it'll simply cause resentment. It's a change from the inside.

If I was raised right or not is debatable, but I find "praying to an imaginary figure" quite productive. It reminds me of my connection to something larger, my connection to others, and firms my resolve and commitment. It has made a significant impact in my life, and given I've known me my entire life I feel comfortable saying I'm a better person for it.

That connection, that sense of community and brotherhood, is sadly lacking in modern society and continues to degrade. It's not really a religion problem, it's a societal change problem. Fewer and fewer small towns, more people living in anonymous large cities were you get lost in the crowds, a lifestyle that's increasingly "virtual world" centered, etc. One of the most moving experiences of my life was going to the Sagrada Familia cathedral in Barcelona. I'm not Christian, so a Catholic cathedral is not "my" house. But I was welcome there, and I felt the connection with generations of men who were connected to that beautiful building. It's not just stone and glass, it's the life's work of men who knew they'd be long dead before their work was completed. Gaudi, the architect, famously brushed aside concerns of the multi-generation construction schedule with "My client is not in a hurry". Sitting there, admiring it, you *feel* that connection to man and God.

Life without faith leaves a hole, something will inevitably fill it. Of course you can be a good person without religion, or a specific religion, and some worthwhile secular cause can fill that hole. I admittedly derive as much sense of identity and purpose from my role as a father, husband, and LEO as I do from my religion, but I would be less whole without any of those pieces. I could survive, I could be "good", but I wouldn't be whole.

Billy Graham brought that "wholeness" to many, many people. I won't begrudge him his financial success, he earned it. I don't look at a cathederal or mosque and say "how many sandwiches could that have bought the poor?" I wonder how many generations of mankind it has touched, and been a bright spot in their lives. Billy Graham was that bright spot for many, and that $25 million is a bargain for what he did.

Yours is another opinion I think highly of so I read that with an open mind. I can truly disseminate those that truly believe and those that believe for convenience and you sir, are the former. I'm both humbled and saddened that to feel whole, you need that in your life.

It's true that your God has done little to persuade me of his existence. I was never forced to go to church. My parents were not believers, never divorced, no drugs or alcohol problems, and sacrificed their own wants for those of their children. That being said, I've seen believers deliver violence to other believers in ways that haunt me 25 years later so you'll have to excuse my inability to believe.

 

[indiucky]

Actually, I was quoting Crowley quoting Rabelais

I caught that Bug...Many people that quote that have no idea where and from who it came...

 

[Rookie]

As I said I am NOT a bible scholar. Looks like you may be, or did you just come from a family that supported that TV fraud?

Or did I come from a family that taught me how to use basic research tools in order to avoid looking foolish?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And I carry guns because of religion which has caused more death on this planet than anything else.

That's a common Athiest belief, and doesn't hold up to even the most cursory of examinations. It typically devolves into a numbers fight, with casualty counts from Socialist/Communist lead killing programs vs religious wars, but even that misses the point.

Men fight and kill regardless of the presence of religion. I'd invite you to read "The Dark Side of Man" https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Man-Helix-Books/dp/0738203157 and see the roots of violence, from wars to individual killing, and how completely necessary it has been in the development of mankind. Apes fight wars and murder, and as best we can tell they have no religion. They fight for the same reason we do, for resources. Religion (and state) are often used as excuses for resource wars, but all wars are resource wars at their most basic level. Religion is often a cover, a window dressing justification, but even the Crusades were not truly about religion any more than European incursion into "Native America" was really about converting the "savages" to Christianity. It's just a nicer way of saying "we want their land" or "I need to consolidate political and economic power".

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Well I think I finally get why we're getting all this rain....37 days and nights left guys....

He did promise to not do that one again. If you hear trumpets, then it'll be game over.

 

[indiucky]

It's true that your God has done little to persuade me of his existence.

It's there brother...All around us...The evidence I mean....A beautiful scene from the film Risen when a Centurion makes a similar statement regarding existence...

[video=youtube;hlIV8lMvz6I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlIV8lMvz6I[/video]

 

[wagyu52]

Well he died with a estate worth TWENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS and owned a PRIVATE JET, can't fly with the idiots who made him rich. How many poor people could 25 mil feed? I am not saying he should have lived in a cave but to become rich on the name of Christ makes me think God has a seat for him between Manson and Hitler..........I for one hope so.

You are more correct than you know. Billy Graham was a sinner until the day he died and deserved an eternal punishment in hell, just like me. Thankfully he believed in grace, mercy and forgiveness, as do I. You should try it.

 

[PaulF]

Ugh. This crap. Again.

Graham wasn't one of the bad ones...and there are bad ones. Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, Creflo Dollar, "Rabbi" Rod Parsons...these guys just ooze charlatanism. As an atheist I've always joked that we can smell one of our own, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out, when pressed, these (latter) listed celebrity preachers don't actually hold the values they preach.

But not Graham...I never got the feeling he was "faking" it for views. I think he was a natural showman and a shrewd businessman, but also a believer in his work and the message.

With that said, as a non-believer, seeing a rich preacher automatically sets off my "exploit" alarms, and puts me into skeptic mode. I expect a preacher, someone who tasks themselves with spreading a message, to understand and apply that message in his own life to the highest degree. Christian preachers are supposed to spread Christian message, and Jesus seemed far more interested in preparing others for the Kingdom of God than for his own retirement.