Wolves & Cougars

[Hkindiana]

"I've witnessed a handful of coyotes working to separate a calf (living, probably a week old) from it's mother in daylight hours"

I've witnessed this too! Coyotes around cattle and that's what you get.
We have a gentleman that we farm with, and he's very savvy on coyotes.
He lives in Decatur County and he kills about 60 a year!
He runs alot of cattle, and dogs are impracticle because his cattle are spread all over.


As for the cougar deal, There was/is a documented case of a cougar killing a cow in Oct, '10 about 3miles East of Franklin, In. Story made the WTHR news...
It's unclear as to where the cougar came from...there IS a guy in that general area that has/had some caged lions, tigers, and yes, bears.
His animal population was up around 30! DNR came in and made him get rid of most...That's been a couple years ago. Could he have let one loose?
Hey, short line is- you priced beef recently? That cow was valued at 1200 Bucks!

I look at other areas that have these critters- not just Yellowstone...
I went to Bike Week in Daytona 2yrs ago, and they were warning people(especially campers in Tomoka SP) that a young male cougar had left his pack and was setting up territory in the area.Lemme tell ya-NOBODY was thrilled about it...
Cougars need to kill a deer sized animal every 3-4 days, an Elk every 7-8;Got that info from a guy that just came back from a successful cougar hunt in Co.

AGAIN, fear and ignorance, and FACTS that aren't facts. A large cat needs to EAT every 3-4 days, and more often than not it eats carrion, or mice, rabbits, and birds. If every cougar brought down a deer every 3-4 days, then deer would quickly be extinct. You have seen coyotes around cows trying to separate calves, but did you see them do it? They are usually only successful if the calf is injured, weak, or diseased. Cows do die of NATURAL causes, disease, and injuries - and then whatever eats the carcass is blamed for the kill. Again, if you see an opossum eating a dead calf, would you blame it for the kill? Or how about those FEROCIOUS maggots eating the carcass - did they kill it?

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Huge hit? Where has that been documented? Northern WI and MN has had large packs for over 30 years, they still have deer and cattle there.

Do they eat livestock? Some do. Huge hit? Not really.

Ummm, I'm from northern MN and they've been there longer than we have. If you ever go there and ask the local farmers about it, they'll tell you that there is no problem, that is because they have learned how to deal with it and keep their mouths shut. The timber wolf is endangered because of it. Most commonly they will put double edged razors in hamburger and place it atop fence posts. There is actually plenty of legislation documenting the problem and preventing farmers from dealing with the problem openly thus the whole keeping their mouths shut part.

 

[Jack Ryan]

"Coyotes around my place kill several young calves a year and they are plentiful in these parts"

Coyotes are almost ALWAYS blamed for stillbirths. When most farmers see that a coyote has been feasting on a dead farm animal, they think that the coyote has killed it, when nine times out of ten it died on its own, and the coyote was just scavenging. When you find an opposum eating a dead calf, do you blame it for killing the calf?

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/grants/disaster/wolf.aspx

Wolf Depredation Compensation
Recognizing the economic harm wolf depredation can have on domestic livestock, the 1977 Minnesota Legislature authorized the Minnesota Department of Agriculture to reimburse livestock owners for losses caused by wolves. USDA/Wildlife Services provides wolf trapping for cases of verified wolf attacks on domestic animals. To receive trapping services and to be eligible for state reimbursement, farmers and ranchers need to follow specific reporting procedures.


Indiana Consolidated Dog Laws
15-20-2-3 Losses and expenses chargeable to county; exemptions

Sec. 3. (a) The following losses and expenses are chargeable to the county in which an attack or exposure occurs:
(1) Damages, less compensation by insurance or otherwise, sustained by the owner of the following stock, fowl, or game killed, maimed, or damaged by a dog:



(A) Sheep.



(B) Cattle.



(C) Horses.



(D) Swine.



(E) Goats.



(F) Mules.



(G) Chickens.



(H) Geese.



(I) Turkeys.



(J) Ducks.



(K) Guineas.



(L) Tame rabbits.



(M) Game birds and game animals held in captivity under authority of a game breeder's license issued by the department of natural resources.



(N) Bison.



(O) Farm raised cervidae.



(P) Ratitae.



(Q) Camelidae.

I found a lot of places farmers get reimbursed for a lot of losses and ways their animals get killed or die. They get reimbursements and tax write offs from the county, the state and federal programs and insurance or by fines of the owner of other animals hurting their animals.

I couldn't find any way, agency, or program that reimburses them for still births. I don't know if that has any affect on the number of farm losses labled "stillbirth" or not.

 

[Hkindiana]

"I found a lot of places farmers get reimbursed for a lot of losses and ways their animals get killed or die. They get reimbursements and tax write offs from the county, the state and federal programs and insurance or by fines of the owner of other animals hurting their animals.

I couldn't find any way, agency, or program that reimburses them for still births. I don't know if that has any affect on the number of farm losses lable "stillbirth" or not."

When compensation is involved, I doubt that there are ANY deaths due to stillbirth, natural causes, or disease. It's much too easy to blame something that will generate a "payday". BTW domestic dogs are MUCH more dangerous to livestock than predators because they kill for fun - like humans.

 

[snowman46919]

"what I am trying to point out is that those adjustments will people that may suffer from the government interfering once again with the natural course of things. There are responsible people out there that do their best to not upset nature more than it already has been. You apparently want to come in and muck up the water that has already settled as long as it doesn't affect you directy"

Let's see, so you think the "natural course of things" is no wolves or cougars, and "mucking up water that has already been settled" means that since they were already exterminated that is the wat it should stay?

Was it the natural course of things 100 years ago probably not, is nature adjusting to how it is now sort of. With the lack of presence of a larger predator yotes have gotten braver, stronger, and bigger. This newer generation of yotes has more than likely never seen a larger predator on four legs. There are several things this could cause or none at all, what concerns me is they could fight for territory and the loser goes packing to find a meal which very well could be livestock. The dog depredation laws are like the other depredation laws full of bull**** and red tape but apparently re-iterating the facts that the state was less than helpful in the past doesn't seem to get across to anyone. So I will state the points I am trying to make and be as clear and as concise as possible.

1. Our farm has had trouble in the past with wild dogs, yotes, and any other four legged carrion eater or carnivore.

2. The state has been dismissive to the point where it used to be policy around here to "shoot, shovel, and shut up.

3. I do not want to break any laws if I can avoid it and I certainly do not want to have to kill a cougar or wolf as they are very awesome animals.

4. The only thing keeping the farm running right now is our livestock as crop returns have been less than forthcoming in parts of grant county, we lose any livestock we lose the farm and everything on it (3 houses in which our family resides.)

5. Here is most important thing to me, look at how the state has handled the reintroduction and population control of the white tail deer in Indiana, you could practically throw a rock in a wooded area and hit one.

 

[Mr.Strato]

Hkindiana, you said, "AGAIN, fear and ignorance, and FACTS that aren't facts" in response to one of my posts???
Well, you're a damned fool.
Why in the world would I say something that's not true?
Hell, I've seen and shot coyotes working newborn calves.
That's a DNR documented cougar kill over by Franklin.
You talk about "fear and ignorance"- well that describes you!
You're ignorant to think a 1200$ loss is insignificant to a livestock farmer.
You're ingnorant and uniformed to believe farmers let livestock get "old, sick and die" and then get reimbursed after a 'possum chews on them.
You're moving over into the "fear" territory because you've lied out so many of your own "beliefs and factoids" that you're in so deep you've lost all credibility here.
You sound like you live in Broadripple-you're obviously NOT intelligent enough to live in Mars Hill. Listen, Biff,your responses show a complete lack of understanding as to how man and nature co-exist.
I suggest you go back to your vegetarian democrat libtard shaman and get a review of lesson #1, because you're not holding up your end of the liberal treeuhugging 'I wanna lick a wolf' aganda.

 

[Hkindiana]

Hkindiana, you said, "AGAIN, fear and ignorance, and FACTS that aren't facts" in response to one of my posts???
Well, you're a damned fool.

Did I hurt your little feelings about one of YOUR posts?

Why in the world would I say something that's not true?

Maybe because they they are lies?

Hell, I've seen and shot coyotes working newborn calves.

Yes, they will work newborn calves, but they are BLAMED for far more damage than they do.

That's a DNR documented cougar kill over by Franklin.

Yes there is, of a deer, not a cow.

You talk about "fear and ignorance"- well that describes you!
You're ignorant to think a 1200$ loss is insignificant to a livestock farmer.

Where did I EVER say that?

Y're ingnorant and uniformed to believe farmers let livestock get "old, sick and die" and then get reimbursed after a 'possum chews on them.

Face it, sometimes animals DO die of natural causes. If you didn't understand the opossum comment, I don't know how to "splain" it on your level

You're moving over into the "fear" territory because you've lied out so many of your own "beliefs and factoids" that you're in so deep you've lost all credibility here.

I have pointed out your lies, and lack of credibility. Where have I lied?

You sound like you live in Broadripple-you're obviously NOT intelligent enough to live in Mars Hill. Listen, Biff,your responses show a complete lack of understanding as to how man and nature co-exist.

You are ignorant to infer where someone lives, or what they do for a living, based solely on their beliefs and postings. I live in southern Indiana, and believe it or not, I AM a farmer. I realize that deer eat my crops, and that I lose an occasional animal to coyotes - but I don't blame them for everything.

I suggest you go back to your vegetarian democrat libtard shaman and get a review of lesson #1, because you're not holding up your end of the liberal treeuhugging 'I wanna lick a wolf' aganda.

Lifelong meat eating Republican (with a brain) here.

 

[Mr.Strato]

Hk.... you haven't demonstrated any firsthand credible knowledge about this topic.
I'm not going to argue with you, as I said, in my opinion you've proved yourself to be a fool preaching your agenda and refusing to acknowledge facts.
I'm tapping out.

 

[Hkindiana]

Hk.... you haven't demonstrated any firsthand credible knowledge about this topic.
I'm not going to argue with you, as I said, in my opinion you've proved yourself to be a fool preaching your agenda and refusing to acknowledge facts.
I'm tapping out.

OK, run away, but you never did provide ANY facts that I refuse to acknowledge, and you didn't refute any of mine.

 

[nate1865]

My family and other Native American tribes are doing a fine job of wiping ourselves out without help from whitey. Between liquor drugs and poverty we will be gone soon enough.

I would argue that the US government put Native Americans in that position of temptation, to which they've fallen.

Why?

They took away any need to occupy themselves with labor and other beneficial pursuits by promising them money. It's destroyed their sense of self-worth, pride in earning that which they have - the great spirit of the Native American.

 

[Hkindiana]

I would argue that the US government put Native Americans in that position of temptation, to which they've fallen.

Why?

They took away any need to occupy themselves with labor and other beneficial pursuits by promising them money. It's destroyed their sense of self-worth, pride in earning that which they have - the great spirit of the Native American.

Like welfare has done for those who can afford piercings, cell phones, and cable TV, but "can't afford" to buy insurance or food?

 

[snowman46919]

Like welfare has done for those who can afford piercings, cell phones, and cable TV, but "can't afford" to buy insurance or food?

that was a little low there bud, you know some people may afford some things before the loss of a job and such.. so if i were to lose my job I should remove my piercings.. whats next scraping the tattoo off my back? I know what I hope you meant by that statement but it could be twisted to look very bad on your part.

 

[kevinsr98]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would want a population of wolves in Indiana. We have enough trouble with all the coyotes in our area.

 

[Hkindiana]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would want a population of wolves in Indiana. We have enough trouble with all the coyotes in our area.

The question was "why are so many people AFRAID of wolves and cougars", not " should we release wolves and cougars in Indiana"

 

[randyb]

I have heard that if you put a ring on it, cougars will run away..... at least the bar kind... I seriously have no problem with wolves or cougars in the wilderness. Keeping my kids safe means extra precautions, but regularly take them in the outdoors and I am much more worried about two legged predators.

 

[Anonym]

Wow, you guys are harsh with each other. I'm not for or against it. As I said, we already have trouble w/ coyotes, and I think wolves would actually help this problem by giving them direct competition. When wolves were in the area, coyotes were much smaller scavengers instead of the larger predators they've grown to become. The issues with coyotes are real, and yes, we may have instances where wolves create the same issues. Will it be any worse than it is? Maybe, but I almost doubt it.

Where I live, we'd probably see some of the first released. They have done it before, so I doubt it will stop them from doing it again.

I hinted at this earlier and it's been mentioned by others, unless you're native to the area and had shared this land with these animals before, we are the trespassers and should be cautious of where we tread. If we treat these animals with respect and understand their nature, I'm sure we can learn to co-exist with them the same as our native ancestors had.

 

[Jack Ryan]

We already have deer overpopulation. Can you image how we would be overrun with them if the coyotes didn't help to control the population? Remember, it was US that wiped out the deer in the first place. Then we used the excuse of "not enough deer" to blame the coyotes and then wipe THEM out.

"WE" don't have a deer over population problem.

 

[tom1025]

I have heard that if you put a ring on it, cougars will run away..... at least the bar kind... I seriously have no problem with wolves or cougars in the wilderness. Keeping my kids safe means extra precautions, but regularly take them in the outdoors and I am much more worried about two legged predators.

The great thing about bar cougars is they don't waste time getting down to buisness
behind closed doors.

 

[Hkindiana]

"WE" don't have a deer over population problem.

Are you serious? If we didn't have a deer overpopulation problem, there would not be so many depredation permits issued, and you would not be able to hunt so many per year - especially does. I remember when it took real skill to hunt deer, and you were only allowed to take a buck. On opening day this year I counted 27 deer in the first hour. I planted 1400 pine trees, and in two years the deer had destroyed close to 1000 of them.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Are you serious? If we didn't have a deer overpopulation problem, there would not be so many depredation permits issued, and you would not be able to hunt so many per year - especially does. I remember when it took real skill to hunt deer, and you were only allowed to take a buck. On opening day this year I counted 27 deer in the first hour. I planted 1400 pine trees, and in two years the deer had destroyed close to 1000 of them.

So have you got a mouse in your pocket that owns the rest of Indiana?