- Jan 12, 2012
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Free will's a B****!
Where do you find this 'free will'? My lawyer charged me plenty for mine!
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Predict the 1st Banning for uncivil behavior in the new Religious Threads...
- Thread starter SEIndSAM
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Where do you find this 'free will'? My lawyer charged me plenty for mine!
This in no way invalidates The Church, only those running it. Much like the current occupants of the whitehouse do not invalidate America,
You might be able to count more protestant denominations that have thought the pope is the antichrist at one time or other than not. Really, why ARE there so many Christian denominations? Some quibble over trivial bits of doctrine and declare each other blasphemers and cults. And the rest of humanity looks on and sighs.
Vinegar. You give it? Voice of experience, be prepared to get it back.
Sure, everything can be explained through faith.
Interest'n......
?.....where'na hell's all'ese.....'entity's'......in cases like this'n.....an' ALOT more jus' like it.....
Body of missing Monroe Co. girl found - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
can anybody answer 'at ?.......an' save all'a " the (insert yer choice here....) had a better plan..."
cuzzz.....at's horsesh**.....
I usually pride myself in my ability to interpret your posts. This is one of the more difficult ones. I think you're asking why a supposed loving god would allow stuff like that?
It's a matter of belief. You can reconcile every question with faith. But either way, god, no god, we're still left wondering why bad stuff happens to innocent people. My only answer to that is that some people really suck.
Interest'n......
?.....where'na hell's all'ese.....'entity's'......in cases like this'n.....an' ALOT more jus' like it.....
Body of missing Monroe Co. girl found - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
can anybody answer 'at ?.......an' save all'a " the (insert yer choice here....) had a better plan..."
cuzzz.....at's horsesh**.....
TRANSLATO-BOT
Harleyrider_50 said:
"Not 100 people in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen
First, my comments are a description of my own imperfect understanding of God's will, as expressed through Catholic teachings. There are likely to be dogmatic wrinkles that I will skip or minimized for purposes of arguing religion on the interwebz. 
To keep this civil, let's avoid any sort of "gotcha" type posts.
St. John Gualbert is the patron saint of foresters.
As a bit of a complication, it is ok to pray for intercession from any loved one who has passed away and who (you think) is in Heaven. Yes, I can see how that might look like ancestor-worship, as I concede that this idea of intercession can be interpreted as you describe. It is a similar denunciation to the Mary-worship accusations.
I can only say that it is not like that. Frankly, I think it is a part of an hidden agenda to simply have Catholics pray more. So you're all set to pray. You pray to God, the father, because He's, like, the Big Guy. Then you pray to Jesus, the Son, who knew what it was like to be human. Then you pray to the Holy Spirit, the Great Do-er of the Holy Trinity.
Ok. We're done here, right?
Not exactly. As a Catholic, probably helpful to do a decade of the Rosary for Mary's intercession. But wait, you're going to be felling some trees later? Not a bad idea to pray to St. John Gaulbert for his help and protection. But wait, the trees are on your deceased grandfather's property? He was a good man, hopefully he's out of purgatory. He taught you responsibility and how to work a chainsaw safely. Not a bad idea to pray for his intercession on your behalf, too.
Before you know it, prayer-time doubled. Which is not all bad.
So, that's a bit facetious.
The whole intercession thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO when it comes to critics of Catholicism. It is a misunderstanding (intentional or otherwise) to compare Catholicism to the pagan system. Is Catholic dogma on this point nuanced? Perhaps. But it doesn't mean the nuance can be ignored.
Saints, or other deceased, are not idolized in the sense of being worshiped as gods. They sometimes act on behalf of God to further His will.
By the way, this is not a new phenomenon. In the early days of the church, there were real problems with groups doing things very close to worshiping people, not God.
Oh, I also want to pick up on one specific thing you said. "I can see no meaningful, operational, functional distinction between...." Here's another fundamental point: none of us truly know how this works. That's something we can't really know (or find out is wrong) until we cross over. The Catholic Church's belief system is based on the teachings of Christ and a couple millennia of human experience. (More, if you count the Jewish tradition from the Old Testament.) While I can understand the rejection of that as non-authoritative, I disagree. There is much that science and reason cannot explain.
In terms of being banned, having skimmed the thread about the religious aspects of islamofascism, I can easily see myself picking up a few days of unplanned INGO-vacation. I'll probably avoid it.
To keep this civil, let's avoid any sort of "gotcha" type posts.St. John Gualbert is the patron saint of foresters.
As a bit of a complication, it is ok to pray for intercession from any loved one who has passed away and who (you think) is in Heaven. Yes, I can see how that might look like ancestor-worship, as I concede that this idea of intercession can be interpreted as you describe. It is a similar denunciation to the Mary-worship accusations.
I can only say that it is not like that. Frankly, I think it is a part of an hidden agenda to simply have Catholics pray more. So you're all set to pray. You pray to God, the father, because He's, like, the Big Guy. Then you pray to Jesus, the Son, who knew what it was like to be human. Then you pray to the Holy Spirit, the Great Do-er of the Holy Trinity.
Ok. We're done here, right?
Not exactly. As a Catholic, probably helpful to do a decade of the Rosary for Mary's intercession. But wait, you're going to be felling some trees later? Not a bad idea to pray to St. John Gaulbert for his help and protection. But wait, the trees are on your deceased grandfather's property? He was a good man, hopefully he's out of purgatory. He taught you responsibility and how to work a chainsaw safely. Not a bad idea to pray for his intercession on your behalf, too.
Before you know it, prayer-time doubled. Which is not all bad.
So, that's a bit facetious.
The whole intercession thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO when it comes to critics of Catholicism. It is a misunderstanding (intentional or otherwise) to compare Catholicism to the pagan system. Is Catholic dogma on this point nuanced? Perhaps. But it doesn't mean the nuance can be ignored.
Saints, or other deceased, are not idolized in the sense of being worshiped as gods. They sometimes act on behalf of God to further His will.
By the way, this is not a new phenomenon. In the early days of the church, there were real problems with groups doing things very close to worshiping people, not God.
Oh, I also want to pick up on one specific thing you said. "I can see no meaningful, operational, functional distinction between...." Here's another fundamental point: none of us truly know how this works. That's something we can't really know (or find out is wrong) until we cross over. The Catholic Church's belief system is based on the teachings of Christ and a couple millennia of human experience. (More, if you count the Jewish tradition from the Old Testament.) While I can understand the rejection of that as non-authoritative, I disagree. There is much that science and reason cannot explain.
In terms of being banned, having skimmed the thread about the religious aspects of islamofascism, I can easily see myself picking up a few days of unplanned INGO-vacation.
I'll probably avoid it.
Dude. I can't believe you said the P word. Don't you know how much people hate the word Putgatory? 
And FYI, Saint Paul the Apostle is my Patron Saint
And FYI, Saint Paul the Apostle is my Patron Saint
First, my comments are a description of my own imperfect understanding of God's will, as expressed through Catholic teachings. There are likely to be dogmatic wrinkles that I will skip or minimized for purposes of arguing religion on the interwebz.
St. John Gualbert is the patron saint of foresters.
As a bit of a complication, it is ok to pray for intercession from any loved one who has passed away and who (you think) is in Heaven. Yes, I can see how that might look like ancestor-worship, as I concede that this idea of intercession can be interpreted as you describe. It is a similar denunciation to the Mary-worship accusations.
I can only say that it is not like that. Frankly, I think it is a part of an hidden agenda to simply have Catholics pray more. So you're all set to pray. You pray to God, the father, because He's, like, the Big Guy. Then you pray to Jesus, the Son, who knew what it was like to be human. Then you pray to the Holy Spirit, the Great Do-er of the Holy Trinity.
Ok. We're done here, right?
Not exactly. As a Catholic, probably helpful to do a decade of the Rosary for Mary's intercession. But wait, you're going to be felling some trees later? Not a bad idea to pray to St. John Gaulbert for his help and protection. But wait, the trees are on your deceased grandfather's property? He was a good man, hopefully he's out of purgatory. He taught you responsibility and how to work a chainsaw safely. Not a bad idea to pray for his intercession on your behalf, too.
Before you know it, prayer-time doubled. Which is not all bad.
So, that's a bit facetious.
The whole intercession thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO when it comes to critics of Catholicism. It is a misunderstanding (intentional or otherwise) to compare Catholicism to the pagan system. Is Catholic dogma on this point nuanced? Perhaps. But it doesn't mean the nuance can be ignored.
Saints, or other deceased, are not idolized in the sense of being worshiped as gods. They sometimes act on behalf of God to further His will.
By the way, this is not a new phenomenon. In the early days of the church, there were real problems with groups doing things very close to worshiping people, not God.
Oh, I also want to pick up on one specific thing you said. "I can see no meaningful, operational, functional distinction between...." Here's another fundamental point: none of us truly know how this works. That's something we can't really know (or find out is wrong) until we cross over. The Catholic Church's belief system is based on the teachings of Christ and a couple millennia of human experience. (More, if you count the Jewish tradition from the Old Testament.) While I can understand the rejection of that as non-authoritative, I disagree. There is much that science and reason cannot explain.
In terms of being banned, having skimmed the thread about the religious aspects of islamofascism, I can easily see myself picking up a few days of unplanned INGO-vacation.
Rosaries
Chaplets
Saint ______ medals
are focus objects (like prayer beads) to ease the random thoughts and distractions involved in regular (daily) prayer.
Protestant denominations (that I have been involved with) may frown on Rosaries but love them some prayer cloths and prayer lists.
Its basically the same thing. Give the Protestants 1500 more years and they may have a Paul rosary
I'm not trying to bash anybody. I'm a committed Christian that is studying to convert to Catholisism from Basement Baptist.
Chaplets
Saint ______ medals
are focus objects (like prayer beads) to ease the random thoughts and distractions involved in regular (daily) prayer.
Protestant denominations (that I have been involved with) may frown on Rosaries but love them some prayer cloths and prayer lists.
Its basically the same thing. Give the Protestants 1500 more years and they may have a Paul rosary
I'm not trying to bash anybody. I'm a committed Christian that is studying to convert to Catholisism from Basement Baptist.
Rosaries
Chaplets
Saint ______ medals
are focus objects (like prayer beads) to ease the random thoughts and distractions involved in regular (daily) prayer.
Protestant denominations (that I have been involved with) may frown on Rosaries but love them some prayer cloths and prayer lists.
Its basically the same thing. Give the Protestants 1500 more years and they may have a Paul rosary
I'm not trying to bash anybody. I'm a committed Christian that is studying to convert to Catholisism from Basement Baptist.
Welcome home.
I'm no expert and I'm far from perfect but if you ever need anything let me knowRosaries
Chaplets
Saint ______ medals
are focus objects (like prayer beads) to ease the random thoughts and distractions involved in regular (daily) prayer.
Protestant denominations (that I have been involved with) may frown on Rosaries but love them some prayer cloths and prayer lists.
Its basically the same thing. Give the Protestants 1500 more years and they may have a Paul rosary
I'm not trying to bash anybody. I'm a committed Christian that is studying to convert to Catholisism from Basement Baptist.
Came to the Catholic church in 1998...I thought I was Christian before then...attended assorted Southern, Suburban, United, Bible, etc etc Baptist and/or Methodist churches when a kid...based on whatever church bus came through the complex...have no regrets.
Oral Roberts needed money, so he decided to put his best sermons on a record and sell them to the flock...ended up eating a million copies...the holes kept healing up.
- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
- 113
My thoughts on denominational quibbling:
1. So far as I am concerned, salvation is by the grace of God (i.e., none of us can earn it) through faith (i.e., you must believe and choose to follow Christ as your savior to receive it). If we agree on that much, you aren't going to catch much grief from me unless you are way out of the boundaries of scripture in a way that would appear to be crossing the line defining the outer edge of salvation.
2. I find most of the infighting that happens to be counterproductive and of no practical use. That said, unlike some other religions with one in particular coming to mind, we generally don't kill each other over it. We really haven't had any truly religious wars in Christendom since the Spanish Armada debacle.
3. Purgatory and prayer to the deceased. I would consider Purgatory an inferred solution to a nonexistent problem as my understanding is that those who are saved will be made pure instantaneously at the meeting with the Lord according to my understanding of scripture. I do not see where there is anything worth fighting over because T.Lex is satisfied that he is probably going to have to sit detention for a while on the way in. My view on prayer to Mary or any other deceased person is about the same. I am disinclined to believe that it has any practical value, but they are not assigning superhuman status to these people. They are simply asking for righteous dead to put in a good word for them with God. My position is that it is not necessary and I doubt they get any actual mileage out of it, but they are not doing anything approaching heresy here, like suggesting that the righteous dead are elevated to godhood.
4. If you take a reasonable application of what you are called to do, you will find that the responsibility given to believers is to declare the Gospel, not browbeat people into believing it, not to browbeat them into believing it according to your understanding of it.
5. If you truly believe in the free society in which we ostensibly live, you will understand that all the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment rest on the freedom of thought, which ultimately devolves into the right to be wrong (your mileage may vary in defining 'wrong').
All said and done, I find most doctrinal quibbling to be unnecessary. Most denominations exist because they were good at one thing more so than others and then decided that this one thing is the only thing and what it's all about, and everyone else is all wet. Perhaps we will see a trend for the good at such a time that the church in America becomes more like the church of Corinth with all these people in one house (well, without the sin problems in Corinth hopefully) which I consider to be a likely outcome as our larger society moves toward pushing faith out of the public square and fewer people will feel inclined toward such quaint notions as faith.
1. So far as I am concerned, salvation is by the grace of God (i.e., none of us can earn it) through faith (i.e., you must believe and choose to follow Christ as your savior to receive it). If we agree on that much, you aren't going to catch much grief from me unless you are way out of the boundaries of scripture in a way that would appear to be crossing the line defining the outer edge of salvation.
2. I find most of the infighting that happens to be counterproductive and of no practical use. That said, unlike some other religions with one in particular coming to mind, we generally don't kill each other over it. We really haven't had any truly religious wars in Christendom since the Spanish Armada debacle.
3. Purgatory and prayer to the deceased. I would consider Purgatory an inferred solution to a nonexistent problem as my understanding is that those who are saved will be made pure instantaneously at the meeting with the Lord according to my understanding of scripture. I do not see where there is anything worth fighting over because T.Lex is satisfied that he is probably going to have to sit detention for a while on the way in. My view on prayer to Mary or any other deceased person is about the same. I am disinclined to believe that it has any practical value, but they are not assigning superhuman status to these people. They are simply asking for righteous dead to put in a good word for them with God. My position is that it is not necessary and I doubt they get any actual mileage out of it, but they are not doing anything approaching heresy here, like suggesting that the righteous dead are elevated to godhood.
4. If you take a reasonable application of what you are called to do, you will find that the responsibility given to believers is to declare the Gospel, not browbeat people into believing it, not to browbeat them into believing it according to your understanding of it.
5. If you truly believe in the free society in which we ostensibly live, you will understand that all the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment rest on the freedom of thought, which ultimately devolves into the right to be wrong (your mileage may vary in defining 'wrong').
All said and done, I find most doctrinal quibbling to be unnecessary. Most denominations exist because they were good at one thing more so than others and then decided that this one thing is the only thing and what it's all about, and everyone else is all wet. Perhaps we will see a trend for the good at such a time that the church in America becomes more like the church of Corinth with all these people in one house (well, without the sin problems in Corinth hopefully) which I consider to be a likely outcome as our larger society moves toward pushing faith out of the public square and fewer people will feel inclined toward such quaint notions as faith.
- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
- 113
Now for the thought I feel the need to put in a separate post for emphasis:
The path within the boundaries of scripture which leads you closer to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--is the correct path for you which may not necessarily be the right path for me. We started from two different places, but the important thing is that we are going the same direction by following Christ.
The path within the boundaries of scripture which leads you closer to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--is the correct path for you which may not necessarily be the right path for me. We started from two different places, but the important thing is that we are going the same direction by following Christ.
I don't pray the Rosary or speak in tongues, but I know people who do.
Whatever helps your faith is fine with me.
I don't think God will reject you if your faith isn't exactly like mine; I think you're wrong if you believe God will reject me if i don't follow your traditions.
If you want some fun, research why the "Our Father" is different from "The Lord's Prayer."
Whatever helps your faith is fine with me.
I don't think God will reject you if your faith isn't exactly like mine; I think you're wrong if you believe God will reject me if i don't follow your traditions.
If you want some fun, research why the "Our Father" is different from "The Lord's Prayer."
or different from the Pater Noster...the latin translation of the prayer Christ himself gave to us most likely in Aramaic or Hebrew...Would not have wanted to be St Jerome doing the translations back in 400 AD.
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