Officer Shoots at Homeowner on False Alarm Call

[Denny347]

A kid or home owner who messed up and set off their own alarm will.


This thread is quickly turning into a dogpile on anyone who criticizes police tactics that endanger officers and innocents. Non insulting constructive criticism is not acceptable on ingo, but insults and personal attacks to anyone who questions "standard operating procedures" are welcome and encouraged.

This event could have resulted in a legal gun owner getting killed by a cop for clearing his own home, and opening the bank door when a man in black was there who wasn't supposed to be. A knock on the door would have prevented the entire situation. Ingo responsive, "cop shuda kilt em"... what am i missing? Cops knock on doors to serve felony warrants of known dangerous individuals. I've seen them do it every weekend on live pd.

I have no problem with critiques, it comes with the job. However, don't be so convinced that what you THINK is true actually IS true. I've been a Field Training Officer for a looong time and now teach new recruits full-time. I can tell you 100% that walking up to the front door on an alarm and knocking will get you remedial training or fired. You go to the location of the drop first and if it's an interior only drop, walk around the entire exterior looking for forced entry or unlocked windows/doors. The alarm company always tries to call the homeowners BEFORE they call us. Of the thousands and thousands of alarms I've taken, I've never just walked up and knocked on the front door first. If it's secure outside, sure, we can knock on the front door. If I find force, or an open/unlocked door, we will make loud verbal warnings that we are there. Most of the false alarms where the homeowner is there, they meet us as we are walking up or they come to the door AFTER we check their exterior. This is a tragic incident but I didn't see poor tactics or negligence.

 

[Denny347]

Again, I am a non-LEO and I am working from an average citizen perspective, but it seems to me that the LEO involved failed to follow basic rules of gun safety, firing before he recognized his target. He did not identify the target before he fired. Even Men In Black 1 had a scene where Will Smith had to distinguish between a good target and a not-to-be-shot target. Of course, that was only in the movies; I guess it does not apply to real life.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Again, I am a non-LEO and I am working from an average citizen perspective, but it seems to me that the LEO involved failed to follow basic rules of gun safety, firing before he recognized his target. He did not identify the target before he fired. Even Men In Black 1 had a scene where Will Smith had to distinguish between a good target and a not-to-be-shot target. Of course, that was only in the movies; I guess it does not apply to real life.

Coming out of the door frame like a Jack-In-The-Box with a pistol is a textbook example of "Good Shoot".

If the copper were me . . . heck, I'd still be in the car making a phone call to inside but I don't operate under the same ROE.

Do I think cops run up on crap they don't have to and too fast? Yes, but I am not a cop.

I can sit back. Form a perimeter. Sting wire. Talk to the artillery.

I don't have to go seek anything out. Cops do.

 

[jbombelli]

Maybe this is good advice both ways?

You should quit while you're losing.

 

[edporch]

"Originally Posted by edporch Maybe on TV they'd have stood there pointing pistols at each other without firing, then the homeowner would've lowered his pistol when he saw it was a cop as he told him it was his house. ..."

HoughMade said
Do you want more dead cops? "Cause that's how you get more dead cops.

Of course I don't more more dead cops.
How do read my post in it's ENTIRETY and think I'm calling for that?
Do you get the "Maybe on TV..." thing, which screams of sarcasm?

 

[cbhausen]

I hauled ass home one afternoon to check out a glass break alarm at my place only to find a Hendricks County Sheriff's Deputy in my driveway, still in his car. Turns out I got a good-natured ass-chewing by the LEO for racing through the neighborhood (which WAS stupid), as well as putting myself in a possible confrontation with a burglar (or burglars).

Turns out the dog had knocked over something and the loud noise set off the alarm. I now have cameras inside the house so I can see what's going on before entering (or silencing the alarm vs. getting LEO started).

You live and learn.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

And I have a problem with shooting the little girl even if she was "up to no good". Y'know, "pre-crime" and all.

Pfffffft... lawyers

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I've had the police at my house. Well, in my house.

Coming back from martial arts class to find LPD up in my crib. Insulation contractors left front door wide open (for the insulation hose for the attic). Neighbor lady called the po-po.

There were a lot of cops. I did not point any guns at them and in return they did not point any guns at me.

When I told them thank you but to leave, I did not jump out around any corners or point anything at them. I just said, 1, 2, 3 get out of my apple tree and they left.

I have a policy of not pointing guns at stuff I cannot identify. It's like the Four Rules are part of my character and stuff. Training, pfffft, what good is it?

 

[HoughMade]

Of course I don't more more dead cops.
How do read my post in it's ENTIRETY and think I'm calling for that?
Do you get the "Maybe on TV..." thing, which screams of sarcasm?

You're accusing me of not getting sarcasm?

Oh, the irony.

 

[alabasterjar]

If you don’t want cops creeping around your property, don’t have a home alarm that summons them. That’s why we go, because we are called and obligated to go. If you set off your alarm you KNOW the cops are coming. That’s how this works.

This x100.

 

[Ggreen]

In review-
If you clear your house during an alarm and get shot, your an idiot. Curl up in fetal position and wait for police.

If a man wearing all black with a handgun is in your back yard while an alarm is going off and you have a gun, just shoot yourself and save the cop the paperwork.

3. Police tactics are perfect and any incident showing otherwise is flawed and the status quo is still right, even if innocents must die. Critical looks and thinking is unwelcome, we know everything.

4. Suggesting cops should be safer is stupid and anti police somehow.

5. Differing opinions should be ridiculed and followed by threatening and angry pms.

6. If you disagree with the hive you're stupid.

7. Homeowner deserved to die.


Thanks for another rousing, open, and educational conversation

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Can you post the PMs?

 

[Ggreen]

Can you post the PMs?

I could but it's a productive member. I've actually enjoyed some of his posts and i would rather not start a thing over something this silly

 

[MarkC]

I think this is quite sound advice. Lock the doors, Alamo up, and call 911. At the very least, identify your target before rushing into the open to engage unnecessarily.

I think this a way of implementing Tamara Keel's advice: "Don't get out of the boat." If you're in a place of safety, don't leave it, unless you really have to.

When I was a LEO I had all kinds of protective gear, a variety of weapons, and radio communications with others working toward our goal of catching the bad guy. All this equipment coupled with formal training and, even more informal critiques from my bosses and ESPECIALLY my co-workers when I jacked something up, so as to not do it again. Or, in other words, equipment, training, other members of a functioning team, and EXPERIENCE guided by the guys who had been there and knew what they were doing. When we "got out of the boat," it was part of a plan.

Being retired this long, I would have to have a compelling reason, such as the safety of a loved one, to get out of the boat in a "I'm in the boat situation."

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I think this a way of implementing Tamara Keel's advice: "Don't get out of the boat." If you're in a place of safety, don't leave it, unless you really have to.

Ahem, Shootin' Buddy perhaps? His wisdom flows like his hair. So flowing, so much hair.

 

[Denny347]

In review-
If you clear your house during an alarm and get shot, your an idiot. Curl up in fetal position and wait for police.

Is there no middle ground? You KNOW your alarm is going off. The alarm company calls and you NEED to pick it up and inform the responding police of what you are wearing and what you are doing so they can expect you on arrival.

If a man wearing all black with a handgun is in your back yard while an alarm is going off and you have a gun, just shoot yourself and save the cop the paperwork.

Police uniforms are not ninja outfits as you'd like to describe them as. They are conspicuous with their badges and shoulder patches. If your alarm is going off and you PAY for it to be monitored, you should be EXPECTING police to show up.

3. Police tactics are perfect and any incident showing otherwise is flawed and the status quo is still right, even if innocents must die. Critical looks and thinking is unwelcome, we know everything.

Straw man much? You haven't shown flaws. You've expressed your opinion of flaws. Your response about innocents must die shows an emotional response to this incident and emotional responses are rarely effective OR accurate.

4. Suggesting cops should be safer is stupid and anti police somehow.

Your suggestions are actually more dangerous.

5. Differing opinions should be ridiculed and followed by threatening and angry pms.

Post the angry PM without identifiers.

6. If you disagree with the hive you're stupid.

Really? Sigh...

7. Homeowner deserved to die.

Emotional response. Virtually useless in identifying and solving problems

 

[Ggreen]

Is there no middle ground? You KNOW your alarm is going off. The alarm company calls and you NEED to pick it up and inform the responding police of what you are wearing and what you are doing so they can expect you on arrival.

-I'm absolutely saying there is middle ground. But mentioning or suggesting that any tactic used by police should be reviewed or even slightly flawed gets flamed here, fast and regularly never discussed or objectively looked at. Suggesting that the way things are done today is as good as it will ever get is pretty close minded and dangerous from a tactical perspective.

In the case of a broken window or alarm, a lot of people are going to tunnel and not even think to check their phone that is vibrating on the nightstand. Get gun, see whats up is not an unreasonable response. Jumping solo into the backyard without making your presence known seems like a good way to get hurt.

Police uniforms are not ninja outfits as you'd like to describe them as. They are conspicuous with their badges and shoulder patches. If your alarm is going off and you PAY for it to be monitored, you should be EXPECTING police to show up.

They are not ninja outfits, so why are they black and moving to a more subdued set of markings and badge covers. Take the normal everyday never trained gun owner (majority of gun owners) into an adrenaline situation and they start to only see shapes and colors. It's amazing how many people I see tunnel vision (including me when I started) in a competition, tunnel vision resulting in no shoots was even worse in a UTM class I took. Brown and tan, black and white, maybe even a reflective addition to a uniform will make cops more easily identifiable, which should be the point of the average officer. I am also completely against unmarked or conspicuously marked police cars, but that isn't for here.

Straw man much? You haven't shown flaws. You've expressed your opinion of flaws. Your response about innocents must die shows an emotional response to this incident and emotional responses are rarely effective OR accurate.

Your suggestions are actually more dangerous.

Shooting a misidentified target isn't a flaw? There are a string of flaws that lead up to this and thankfully that shot missed.

You will never ever convince me that an officer going into the backyard of a home alone is safe or not a tactical flaw. It is a tactic to hopefully catch the meth head that just scored a tv, not because it's any safer than standing off to one side or the other of the front door. Tactically there is no advantage, back up would have to fight their way to an officer who got himself shot up in a backyard he just charged alone if the bad guy was armed and had murderous intent rather than flighty. That is not what I want or expect a responding officer to do. Cops shouldn't be expected to put themselves in that kind of danger for a stolen tv and a broken window. I'd rather lights on/siren on out front waiting for back up. If going in the backyard is part of a bigger and organized raid on the house, ok. The homeowner is going to have an idea that it's the police when lights and sirens are blaring out front. To an observer this looks like a knee jerk testosterone fueled macho move to catch a petty criminal and prove yourself to the guys.

It's dangerous for reasons highlighted in this very video, had homeowner been the bad guy with murderous intent, cop would have been dead or wounded. Everyone has seen Full Metal Jacket, that is a bad situation to be in for everyone involved. Homeowner hesitated and identified, an armed criminal with nothing to lose wouldn't have. Cop didn't hesitate and nearly killed the homeowner, not faulting his shot, I'm saying that there is a fundamental flaw in the tactics used here. Also it's bad to kill innocent people so any event like this should be learned from. Every other industry takes deep looks at life threatening accidents while the rubberstamp police response is "well, this is just how we train" and wait for the media cycle to move on.

Post the angry PM without identifiers.

We've already hugged it out. I have no reason to lie. This happens any time I post anything that goes against the leo gang here. People get really triggered and love to get personal rather than try and have an open discussion. I'm not here to make enemies I'm here to be part of a forum to share ideas and support gun ownership. Emotional personal outbursts are understandable and as long as it's not threatening I can handle them and move forward.

Emotional response. Virtually useless in identifying and solving problems

Nah, my response was not meant to be emotional it was meant to be sarcastic and ironic. Anytime a police shooting that doesn't lead to a killshot gets posted the blue line bandwagon instantly comments how they wish the cop should have killed the person, even if they were innocent (like this one). It seems un-American to cheer a state sponsored killing of an innocent person, even in the line of duty. It's a tragic, but the bandwagon will belittle the victim in an attempt to show how much they support cops no matter what the case or facts are. I just don't understand that darkness and wish for harm on others, and sarcasm and shi&posting seems to be the millennial response.

 

[brotherbill3]

Don't have time to read 3 pages -

is this another case of "Everyone got it wrong" - proving again that multiple wrongs do not make anything right?

oh and also "now what can we learn"/ "what can we brag about how we're going to do it wrong cause we don't care cause of our rights" etc? ... ranting ...

Ok I'm out ...

 

[Denny347]

-I'm absolutely saying there is middle ground. But mentioning or suggesting that any tactic used by police should be reviewed or even slightly flawed gets flamed here, fast and regularly never discussed or objectively looked at. Suggesting that the way things are done today is as good as it will ever get is pretty close minded and dangerous from a tactical perspective.

In the case of a broken window or alarm, a lot of people are going to tunnel and not even think to check their phone that is vibrating on the nightstand. Get gun, see whats up is not an unreasonable response. Jumping solo into the backyard without making your presence known seems like a good way to get hurt.



They are not ninja outfits, so why are they black and moving to a more subdued set of markings and badge covers. Take the normal everyday never trained gun owner (majority of gun owners) into an adrenaline situation and they start to only see shapes and colors. It's amazing how many people I see tunnel vision (including me when I started) in a competition, tunnel vision resulting in no shoots was even worse in a UTM class I took. Brown and tan, black and white, maybe even a reflective addition to a uniform will make cops more easily identifiable, which should be the point of the average officer. I am also completely against unmarked or conspicuously marked police cars, but that isn't for here.



Shooting a misidentified target isn't a flaw? There are a string of flaws that lead up to this and thankfully that shot missed.

You will never ever convince me that an officer going into the backyard of a home alone is safe or not a tactical flaw. It is a tactic to hopefully catch the meth head that just scored a tv, not because it's any safer than standing off to one side or the other of the front door. Tactically there is no advantage, back up would have to fight their way to an officer who got himself shot up in a backyard he just charged alone if the bad guy was armed and had murderous intent rather than flighty. That is not what I want or expect a responding officer to do. Cops shouldn't be expected to put themselves in that kind of danger for a stolen tv and a broken window. I'd rather lights on/siren on out front waiting for back up. If going in the backyard is part of a bigger and organized raid on the house, ok. The homeowner is going to have an idea that it's the police when lights and sirens are blaring out front. To an observer this looks like a knee jerk testosterone fueled macho move to catch a petty criminal and prove yourself to the guys.

It's dangerous for reasons highlighted in this very video, had homeowner been the bad guy with murderous intent, cop would have been dead or wounded. Everyone has seen Full Metal Jacket, that is a bad situation to be in for everyone involved. Homeowner hesitated and identified, an armed criminal with nothing to lose wouldn't have. Cop didn't hesitate and nearly killed the homeowner, not faulting his shot, I'm saying that there is a fundamental flaw in the tactics used here. Also it's bad to kill innocent people so any event like this should be learned from. Every other industry takes deep looks at life threatening accidents while the rubberstamp police response is "well, this is just how we train" and wait for the media cycle to move on.





We've already hugged it out. I have no reason to lie. This happens any time I post anything that goes against the leo gang here. People get really triggered and love to get personal rather than try and have an open discussion. I'm not here to make enemies I'm here to be part of a forum to share ideas and support gun ownership. Emotional personal outbursts are understandable and as long as it's not threatening I can handle them and move forward.



Nah, my response was not meant to be emotional it was meant to be sarcastic and ironic. Anytime a police shooting that doesn't lead to a killshot gets posted the blue line bandwagon instantly comments how they wish the cop should have killed the person, even if they were innocent (like this one). It seems un-American to cheer a state sponsored killing of an innocent person, even in the line of duty. It's a tragic, but the bandwagon will belittle the victim in an attempt to show how much they support cops no matter what the case or facts are. I just don't understand that darkness and wish for harm on others, and sarcasm and shi&posting seems to be the millennial response.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[JettaKnight]

Shooting a homeowner whom is legally wielding a firearm while checking out a man wearing all black with a gun in the backyard while his home alarm is going off seems like something that should be looked down on. Not "hE dEsErVeD iT" "CoP shulda shot mo betta". Maybe police uniforms should be more reflective and easily detectable so that this type of misidentification doesn't happen over and over.

Typical backlash against any type of criticism to law enforcement tactics that are questionable. This is INGO so I'll take my beating on here by the thin blue liners, but if I were a cop I think I'd take note that we live in a country, and state, that allows people to defend themselves with firearms. Skulking around a backyard while the alarm is blaring, when no cop has checked in with the front door to let the owner know of their presence seems like an unnecessary risk only to catch a b and e suspect who will get probation.

Get your facts straight.

1. He did go the to front door.

Footage from the officer's body cam shows the patrolman attempt to ring the doorbell, but it didn't work. Clothing strewn on the floor and staircase inside are visible through the glass front door.

2. There was no alarm blaring when the officer arrived.

An investigation by KCSO Major Crimes detectives determined the homeowner had accidentally set off the alarm when he came home with his sister and her infant child. The residents turned off the alarm, but forgot to reset the panic alarm, Spangler said.
A subsequent call from the alarm company went unanswered.