.380 Mouse Gun...Or Powerful Stopper?

[ru44mag]

Well, there's a combination thing that often goes on with .380 as well.

What I mean is, although 380 FMJ seems to penetrate adequately, people often couple this cartridge with tiny handguns that have a capacity of less than 8 rounds.

So, you end up in a situation where you have a caliber that will probably do ok if you hit what you need to hit, in a gun that's harder to hit with (due to suboptimal mouse gun ergonomics - tiny grips, heavy triggers, poor sights, short barrel/sight radius, etc.), with no excess capacity to spare.

All this leaves you with a package that may or may not be enough for whatever situation may arise.

Few people who like .380 seem to choose a handgun like a CZ 83 [1] (12+1), or a Beretta 84 (13+1) [2] (neither of which would I want to meet in a dark alley).

[1] - CZ-USA -> CZ 83
[2] - Beretta 84FS CHEETAH 380 13RD SHIPS FREE

This seems to defeat the purpose of the mouse gun. I really like my LCP and my P238 because the are so small and so easy to carry. They are extremely reliable and I can shoot them very accurately. I want to say that again. I can shoot them very accurately. I believe several other people can as well. If I could not, I would sell them. As I have said before I understand the limitations of the .380. That is why I bought the CM9 and why I was drooling all over a P938 Saturday at Bass and Bucks. I have had my LTCH since the 80's, but usually would leave my handgun in the truck rather than carry it with me due to not being able to conceal it properly. With the smaller pistols, I rarely don't carry. There are a lot of great little pistols out there and was even lucky enough to shoot a XDs in 45 ACP yesterday with great pleasure. So...I do see the .380 fading, but for now, there will be times when the little mouse gun is carried so that there is a reasonable amount of safety. Has anyone tried to work in the garden, or mow, or change the oil on the truck, or put in a new floor, with a large pistol on their hip? It just doesn't work for me. A little .380 in the front pocket in a holster...now that I can deal with.

 

[copperhead-1911]

Few people who like .380 seem to choose a handgun like a CZ 83 [1] (12+1), or a Beretta 84 (13+1) [2] (neither of which would I want to meet in a dark alley).

[1] - CZ-USA -> CZ 83
[2] - Beretta 84FS CHEETAH 380 13RD SHIPS FREE

Very true. The thing is though if you are carrying those you might as well be packing a glock 17 due to size

 

[ru44mag]

Very true. The thing is though if you are carrying those you might as well be packing a glock 17 due to size

Or at least a glock 19.

 

[copperhead-1911]

Forgot about that one yes the 19 is closer to the size. I don't find the 26 as accurate because its smaller

 

[cosermann]

This seems to defeat the purpose of the mouse gun. …

Very true. The thing is though if you are carrying those you might as well be packing a glock 17 due to size

Right. That’s kind of what I was trying to point out. There are two concepts that are being conflated – caliber and physical size of the handgun.

.380 often seems to go with tiny guns, but it’s not always the case (as the CZ and Beretta show).

How about the ultra small 9mms out there now? Is the Kahr CM9 a mouse gun? It’s pretty small, but it's in 9mm. Hmm.

The OP asked about the .380 cartridge.

They don’t always go together.

 

[lovemachine]

Forgot about that one yes the 19 is closer to the size. I don't find the 26 as accurate because its smaller

It's the shooter, not the gun.

I carry a Glock 19 and a Glock 26. And I'm as accurate with the G26 as I am with the G19.

 

[lucky4034]

I'd like someone who likes the calibers < .380 to make a case for them. With PM380s and P238s and such on the market now, what' the point of a .25 ACP or a .32?

I could never make a case for those crappy rounds (or a .380 for that matter)... but I could easily make a case for .22lr or 22mag.

Zero snap = on target for beginner shooters. I'd buy a new shooter a .22mag revolver for self defense any day.

 

[AtlasDM]

Pointing out the truth; that shot placement is more important than the size of the gun and that a .380 will stop a threat just as often as a .45; is a sure way to step on some toes.

Come on... you know how guys are. Everyone wants to have a bigger gun than the next guy and think it means something.

But on a serious note, the best gun for the situation is the one you have, not the one you leave at home. Statistically, no matter what round is used, it takes nearly the same number of shots to stop a threat. A .380 "mouse gun" in your pocket is many times more useful than the heavy-ass 1911 you leave at home.

 

[cosermann]

Pointing out the truth; that shot placement is more important than the size of the gun . . .

This is accurate only if penetration is adequate. Otherwise, even perfect shot placement is wasted.

It's also only accurate if the gun is large enough to put a perfectly placed round on each threat. More threats than the gun can handle, and it matters not.

Example: Facing 3 leather jacket clad perps with a 2-shot .25 ACP derringer.

 

[ru44mag]

I've seen lots of .25 shootings. Only one was fatal, and the suspect had literally stood over the top of the downed victim and put 6 in his face. The shell casings were right next to, and on top of, the corpse, and the shots appeared to be almost contact shots.

Now, I've seen it be effective, as in the person shot retreated due to pain or what not, but I wouldn't want to count on it.

.32 seems to be unpopular, I can't think of a shooting I've had where one was used. I think the .25 is popular because of the number of reaaallly cheap guns (Raven, looking at you) that its available in.

Other than cost, I can't think of a viable argument for the .25. Outside of tip up barrel applications for people with severe hand weakness/arthritis, I can't think of a viable argument for the .32. Other than "for fun", of course, but I mean for carry.

This is accurate only if penetration is adequate. Otherwise, even perfect shot placement is wasted.

It's also only accurate if the gun is large enough to put a perfectly placed round on each threat. More threats than the gun can handle, and it matters not.

Example: Facing 3 leather jacket clad perps with a 2-shot .25 ACP derringer.

After a lot of research and tons of stories, I feel the .380 would be helpful in a gunfight, not the best choice, but like some have said way better than no gun. The .25 ACP on the other hand...well lets just say, I think a hammer would be more lethal.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I used to carry an AMT Backup in .22lr AS a backup. I'd do the same with a .380 of similar size, if I owned one, e.g. carry it as a backup to my EDC weapon.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Pointing out the truth; that shot placement is more important than the size of the gun and that a .380 will stop a threat just as often as a .45;

Except it won't. Neither theory nor real life observations back you. Obviously shot placement matters, but in real life you might not get the bullet right were you want it, it may not continue straight inside the body, and it may fail to penetrate enough to hit a vital. A .45 destroys more tissue, has more energy, and is less easy to deflect. I've seen a butt shot that was fatal as it deflected up and severed a major blood vessel in the abdomen. A .380 likely wouldn't have had the energy to do the same thing.

.380 is the minimum I'd recommend for a carry gun, but to say it will stop a threat just as often as a .45 is far from pointing out the truth.

 

[Hohn]

BBI nails it. I can't see how a .380 could be as effective a stopper as a .45.

I've been considering picking up a little Bersa just because they are so good for such a low price, but I have to say I'd probably carry FMJ in it. You just can't trust JHP penetration in a .380.

 

[IndyDave1776]

How about this assessment? .45 > .380 > knife > fist

 

[VERT]

BBI nails it. I can't see how a .380 could be as effective a stopper as a .45.

I've been considering picking up a little Bersa just because they are so good for such a low price, but I have to say I'd probably carry FMJ in it. You just can't trust JHP penetration in a .380.

The longer barrel of the Bersa would give you more velocity the the .380 micro guns. I would opt for quality defense ammo. But carry what is reliable.

 

[ru44mag]

How about this assessment? .45 > .380 > knife > fist

This could be fun... 44mag > 357mag>.45ACP>9mm>.380>Knife>Hammer>.25ACP>fist


Ok...serious question...maybe stupid If you are concerned about penetration with a .380, but for some reason are carrying it, instead of something bigger...Would alternating FMJ with HPs be a good idea?

 

[IndyDave1776]

This could be fun... 44mag > 357mag>.45ACP>9mm>.380>Knife>Hammer>.25ACP>fist


Ok...serious question...maybe stupid If you are concerned about penetration with a .380, but for some reason are carrying it, instead of something bigger...Would alternating FMJ with HPs be a good idea?

Interesting idea. I don't see anything wrong with it.

One other thing--I am not so sure that a .25 is superior to a fist!

 

[ru44mag]

Interesting idea. I don't see anything wrong with it.

One other thing--I am not so sure that a .25 is superior to a fist!

Kinda depends on the fist. I suppose someone could do some reseach...it might actually show more people have died from being punched than being shot by a .25

 

[IndyDave1776]

Kinda depends on the fist. I suppose someone could do some reseach...it might actually show more people have died from being punched than being shot by a .25

Very likely. More people have been killed by hand than killed with rifles of all description in recent years. My guess is that the rifles are used to kill people more often than .25s.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How about this assessment? .45 > .380 > knife > fist

In all seriousness, depending on the situation the knife may move up in the list. I am not one, but a serious knife fighter with the mind set to use it can be absolutely devastating at close range. I've had the honor of training with a skilled knife fighter, and its eye opening how fast you can end up with a chalk line up the back of your gun hand (slicing the tendons) and have the blade in the notch between your neck and shoulder on the return stroke.

Few stabbings are fatal because the attacker isn't dedicated or is unskilled. They just don't go deep enough or don't go to the right places. A guy who knows what he's doing and really wants to harm you, well, you are in a bad place.