.380 Mouse Gun...Or Powerful Stopper?

[ru44mag]

Didn't Bond use a .32 ACP?

That would be even more impressive.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That would be even more impressive.

Well, a bit of research shows I was right. His PPK was a .32 ACP. What I didn't know is that he started out with a Beretta .25 prior to the iconic PPK, and the Beretta was his issued sidearm through the first 5 movies.

 

[Aaron1776]

Didn't Bond use a .32 ACP?

In the last movie I'm fairly certain it was a .380

Silly Europeans generally don't know squat about firearms. Never have. Everyone who did moved here.

As so evidenced by my family.

 

[ru44mag]

Well, a bit of research shows I was right. His PPK was a .32 ACP. What I didn't know is that he started out with a Beretta .25 prior to the iconic PPK, and the Beretta was his issued sidearm through the first 5 movies.

.25 lol. Now that really is worthless. I've heard countless stories of a pocket calculator and a few business cards stopping a .25. A couple my family knew were mugged and shot point blank with a .25. The woman in the face and I can't remember where he was shot, but they were both treated and released for superficial wounds.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Well, a bit of research shows I was right. His PPK was a .32 ACP. What I didn't know is that he started out with a Beretta .25 prior to the iconic PPK, and the Beretta was his issued sidearm through the first 5 movies.

Priceless... "Oh, and 007..."
"Yes sir?"
"Leave the Beretta..."

 

[Hohn]

I'd like someone who likes the calibers < .380 to make a case for them. With PM380s and P238s and such on the market now, what' the point of a .25 ACP or a .32?

 

[ru44mag]

I'd like someone who likes the calibers < .380 to make a case for them. With PM380s and P238s and such on the market now, what' the point of a .25 ACP or a .32?

You just want to flame 'em. I think even those of us that like the .380, know it is borderline at best. The .32 has some fans, but the .25... wouldn't want to be shot by it, but don't like being punched either. I doubt you get any takers on this one.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd like someone who likes the calibers < .380 to make a case for them. With PM380s and P238s and such on the market now, what' the point of a .25 ACP or a .32?

I've seen lots of .25 shootings. Only one was fatal, and the suspect had literally stood over the top of the downed victim and put 6 in his face. The shell casings were right next to, and on top of, the corpse, and the shots appeared to be almost contact shots.

Now, I've seen it be effective, as in the person shot retreated due to pain or what not, but I wouldn't want to count on it.

.32 seems to be unpopular, I can't think of a shooting I've had where one was used. I think the .25 is popular because of the number of reaaallly cheap guns (Raven, looking at you) that its available in.

Other than cost, I can't think of a viable argument for the .25. Outside of tip up barrel applications for people with severe hand weakness/arthritis, I can't think of a viable argument for the .32. Other than "for fun", of course, but I mean for carry.

 

[brokenbutnotdead]

With the current offerings, there's no reason to carry at least a .380 unless your not physically able. I'm big into pocket carry due to the convenience. I settled on a CM40.

 

[mrproc1]

I think the. 380 is a prefect carry gun in the summer time(shorts and t -shirts weather). If, in fact it needs to be drawn, and a good shot is made, I'm sure it'll work just fine. My. 99 cents

 

[Niles Coyote]

I finished a deer off once with a 380 using a factory federal hydro shock. From maybe 8-10 feet away, heart shot, deer expired quick...up on dressing out the deer the bullet was recovered just barely lodged in the off side rib meat, maybe 6-7 inches of penetration. This gave me a little pause as I carry the 380 for concealment when better (larger) choices are not really an option. But as others have said, it’s better than not carrying at all and that’s why I still have it.

The one on the right is the 380, IIRC the others are 200gr .430 XTP's.

 

[cosermann]

380 usually penetrates adequately when there's virtually no expansion (as above).

 

[FirearmPatriot]

I carry a .380 on a regular basis because it is small, light and provides me with 7 Federal Hydra-Shok rounds. Of shot placement is important. The smaller the gun the more difficult it is to make the shot. I think one of the issue with the .380 is penatration, particularly in winter when your attacker may be wearing multiple layers of clothing. As the weather gets colder, I usually go up in caliber to a .45ACP like the XDS but still carry the .380. I also carry 9mms a lot and feel very comfortable with that round. Although I have a DB9, it still is not as comfortable as my P380.

 

[DungeonCrawl]

I still love my Bersa .380, easy to fire accuratly (primary need) and easy to conceal (secondary). Good shot placement fixes any power worries.

 

[cosermann]

I still love my Bersa .380, easy to fire accuratly (primary need) and easy to conceal (secondary). Good shot placement fixes any power worries.

Just out of curiosity, why not carry something like a Kahr CW9 instead? - about the same size, lighter, and chambered in a more powerful and usually less expensive cartridge.

 

[warren5421]

This is from Buffalo Bore Ammo makes good reading from someone who should know.​

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https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=60​

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Use of Expanding Bullets in Small Defensive Cartridges​

A lot of folks carry personal protection handguns. This is a good thing, but there are some misconceptions among gun carriers that can get them or their loved ones killed. This article is an attempt to address one of those issues.
Ammunition featuring expanding (hollow nosed and other designs) bullets can add an extra degree of lethality to typical personal protection pistols, BUT ONLY IN SOME CASES. When dealing with "small" and under-powered pistol cartridges such as 32 ACP, 380 ACP or 9X18 Makarov, it is a possibly fatal mistake (to the user) to use expanding bullets for self defense.
Expanding a projectile that is too light weight and moving too slow, can drastically reduce needed penetration. If every defensive shooting situation could be guaranteed to be against an attacker that wore nothing heavier than a tee shirt, or that didn't weigh over 150 lbs, perhaps expanding bullets would work well every time, but consider the following scenario: The weather is cold and you are attacked by a knife wielding man wearing a heavy coat and under clothing. As he lunges forward with outstretched arms and knife in hand, you fire to save your life. If this man kills you, the consequences for your wife, who is present, are unthinkable. Because the attackers arms are outstretched, your little 380 auto 90gr. JHP bullet hits his heavy coat sleeve and then tears into his large forearm where it expands and lodges and his knife finds its way deep into your chest ------ or, your little 380 auto is loaded with non-expanding flat nosed solid 100gr. bullets (see our items # 27A or 27B) and as you fire, the bullet rips through his coat sleeve and his arm, shattering his forearm and then pierces his sternum, clips his heart and takes out his spine. His arm folds, his legs buckle and he hits the ground for good, while you and your loved ones remain unharmed.
I am a big believer in expanding bullets for self defense provided you are using a cartridge that shoots a bullet that is heavy enough and fast enough to expand and then continue to penetrate 12 to 14 inches in living tissue. 32 ACP, 380 ACP and 9x18 Mak ammunition lack the bullet weight and velocity to push the large frontal area of an expanded bullet very deep into heavy clothing and living mammal tissue. Because many of these 380 ACP pistols are small, I carry them in pants and coat pockets often. I think they are very useful if loaded properly. I have two Kel Tec P3AT's and three Kahr P380's that I carry often. They are all loaded with our items # 27A or 27B. I NEVER use expanding ammo in them, never.
When I carry expanding bulleted loads for self defense against humans, the lightest bullet I'll use is a 124gr. /125gr. 9mm (.355 inch) or .357 and I require a velocity of at least 1,100 fps. This is a very general rule of thumb as bullet construction and the size of the mushroom are factors too and I will not address them here. So, a 9mm 124gr. +P+ or +P will generate (see our items 24B, 24C, and 24E) enough speed and has enough bullet mass, that I would consider carrying it in a personal defense situation, but I'd feel better with a 357 mag. load of a 158gr. bullet at 1,100 fps or a 40 S&W with a 180gr. bullet at 1,000 fps.
I often carry a 2 inch J frame 38 SPL loaded with a 158gr.+P (FBI load - see our item 20A) at 1,000 fps and I am quite confident that even though it is moving slowly, it has enough mass to push that large mushroom very deeply into living tissue. I'm also confident using our "Standard Pressure" 38 SPL that utilizes the very same 158gr. bullet at only 850 fps out of a 2 inch revolver, (item 20C) but it still has enough mass to penetrate deeply enough to get the job done -- I am also very fond of our item 20D, which is a 150gr. full wad cutter HARD CAST bullet, that will not mushroom and cuts a huge hole in living tissueit penetrates very deeply and does tremendous damage.
Lightweight mushrooming 32 ACP or 380 ACP bullets, may in fact kill or stop violent attackers, but under worse case scenarios as outlined above, they can be very ineffective. If I am trying to stop a 300+lb drugged up, violent attacker with a 380 ACP, I want a bullet that can get deep and do a lot of damage at the same time. Flat nosed solid bullets do that. Typical old style round nosed FMJ bullets tend to slip and slide through living tissue and as they do this, they can get sideways and loose penetration - never mind they don't do a lot of damage as they slip and slide. Flat nosed solid bullets tend to cut/smash through material doing a lot of damage and that cutting/smashing action keeps the bullet nose forward, creating the potential for much deeper penetration than a round nose bullet. For more information on this, read our "technical Info" on the 380 ACP or 32 ACP shopping carts.
I am a real fan of using a 45 ACP pistol, loaded with our 45 ACP +P ammo for self defense. I also like to carry a Browning Hi Power 9MM loaded with our 9MM +P+ ammo however, when hot weather arrives and I can't conceal a big pistol as easily, (it can still be done, just not as easily) I will always have a little 380 ACP in my jeans pocket. It will be loaded with non-expanding flat nosed bullets, powered by a 380 ACP +P charge.​

 

[Hohn]

I have pondered something similar myself about using FMJ in a .380 or in a "small" caliber.

Everything I have read from the FBI and the IWBA says that expansion is only desirable secondarily to minimum penetration. FBI min is 12" in gelatin through all their different barriers and such. FMJ will almost always achieve this. JHP loads, not so much.

TNoutdoors9 (one of my fave YT guys) tested both RN and FN FMJ loads in .380 and they went completely through his gelatin block and into the water jugs. WAY more than 12" penetration. It would seem that there is penetration margin to give to make a JHP work in .380.

The problem is that many.380 loads aren't optimized for .380, they are designed around 9mm and shortened as needed. The cavity in the JHP is all wrong for the reduced velocity and momentum of the .380 if this is the case. A .380 JHP should have a smaller hole of shallower depth to reduce expansion to where the .380 will consistently penetrate 12"-18". Instead, the typical .380 over-expands and dumps too much precious energy too soon, compromising the essential penetration.

For an example of doing this right, notice that the JHP cavity on .357 Sig Gold Dot is NOT the same as on the 9x19 Gold Dot, even though the bullets are identical diameter. The much faster speed of the .357 Sig necessitates a different JHP cavity design.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

TNoutdoors9 (one of my fave YT guys) tested both RN and FN FMJ loads in .380 and they went completely through his gelatin block and into the water jugs. WAY more than 12" penetration. It would seem that there is penetration margin to give to make a JHP work in .380.

I've seen a through and through abdominal shot on a heavy set adult male with a .380. Easily 22" of penetration and still kept on chugging through dry wall afterward.

The problem lies in when it isn't an optimal hit and encounters bone or the like. A .380 at near contact will break a femur, but at least in that shooting, didn't have the oomph to keep going afterward. The bone stopped it. I don't know that HP vs FMJ will matter much if a .380 catches a rib.

There are many, many, variables in a gun fight and I'm sure there are instances were FMJ would have been better and others were HP would have been better. I think the odds are in your favor with HP in the .380, though.

 

[copperhead-1911]

I am new here, but not totally to shooting and I do have some law enforcement as an auxiliary officer in college.

personally I have a s&w bodyguard that I would not buy if I had to do it again. it is my backup right now. I figure that someone would have much better stopping power with one of those 5 shot .38 hammerless snubbies or a 9mm like a Ruger LC9

For one thing 9mm is often cheaper and easier to find and many people who worry about shtf would have a 9mm as their sidearm due to the extra rounds it holds.

 

[cosermann]

Well, there's a combination thing that often goes on with .380 as well.

What I mean is, although 380 FMJ seems to penetrate adequately, people often couple this cartridge with tiny handguns that have a capacity of less than 8 rounds.

So, you end up in a situation where you have a caliber that will probably do ok if you hit what you need to hit, in a gun that's harder to hit with (due to suboptimal mouse gun ergonomics - tiny grips, heavy triggers, poor sights, short barrel/sight radius, etc.), with no excess capacity to spare.

All this leaves you with a package that may or may not be enough for whatever situation may arise.

Few people who like .380 seem to choose a handgun like a CZ 83 [1] (12+1), or a Beretta 84 (13+1) [2] (neither of which would I want to meet in a dark alley).

[1] - CZ-USA -> CZ 83
[2] - Beretta 84FS CHEETAH 380 13RD SHIPS FREE