A friendly discussion of OC vs CC

[StandingReady]

Here is an excerpt of one of my posts from another thread. I would like to have a friendly discussion of OC vs. CC, and I would especially like to hear from the OC advocates on why you believe OC is better/advantageous.

There is no doubt that all else equal, an OC draw is faster, I think we can all agree on that. Yes, it CAN be a deterrent, however there are many cases in which uniformed officers were not a deterrent to aggressors who could have fled but chose instead to fight. The core of the OC argument is that it is always a deterrent, and that is simply not the case. Whether it be impairment from controlled substances, mental issues, extreme bias towards someone, etc, there is not always a rational explanation for the course of action taken. That being said, as an OC'er, what you have to realize is that you, much like a uniformed police officer, very much pose a threat of being caught to the bad guy, both in an objective approach (I mean that IS why you carry, right?) and in the bad guy's subjective opinion.
While I do applaud the people who take it upon themselves to put themselves in harm's way, through carrying a firearm or otherwise, I think there should be an element of wisdom in it (i.e. sometimes being a good witness is better than getting involved. If you CC, you have an excellent chance of being able to choose which path to take. If you OC, you stand a high chance of having your hand forced, even if it escalates the situation or places other people in imminent danger because of the bad guy's response). You cannot legitimately argue that the targeting of a police officer because of the obvious visible threat he poses to a bad guy (or bad guy's freedom) doesn't apply to someone OC'ing. You also cannot argue that the good guys are usually behind the curve responding to a threat. That being said, no matter how fast you are, if the bad guy has a drop on you because he knows you are a threat before you know he is, then you rarely stand a chance of beating someone from the draw (or even as we well know, even an aggressor within 21 feet can pose an imminent threat and close that distance before the average person can break leather). If you choose to CC, you stand a much better chance of controlling the situation in which you are, the timing in which it happens, and whether or not you even choose to go that route. You also stand a greater chance of yielding an element of surprise and placing yourself in a position of advantage, at which point, even the bad guy will usually (not always) have some thought process of self preservation if he knows his chances of turning the tables are slim. It is much like you as an OC'er being approached from a position of advantage by a bad guy who has spotted you first, and you knowing that you are not only well behind the curve time-wise, but also in a physical position of disadvantage. There's two strikes, can you guess what the third is and do you really want to have to be in that position to try it?

There are some instances in which OC might be a good idea (for instance in states or areas where it is very prevalent and you can count on multiple good guys in an area practicing it), however, most of the time, you are hard pressed to legitimately argue that OC is overall a better choice than CC.

My condolences go out to the families of the officers who were killed. These officers, like many others, were a primary target of violent offenders because of the visible threat they posed to the bad guy's plans. A threat that is not perceived by the bad guy as much different than the law abiding citizen who is carrying openly.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I am trying to convey the greatest tactical advantage to people who are well-intended and try to go above and beyond in their civic duties. I am trying to keep you safe, and keep bad situations from unnecessarily escalating. Be careful out there, keep your wits about you, and keep your head on a swivel.

I do think that there are venues for OC, and that it, at times, can be beneficial. I do also think that the practice of CC is generally the wiser path to take. Thoughts?

 

[moischmoe]

It's a personal choice. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Carry OC, carry CC, do both, who cares, just carry.

 

[Glock18FA]

Why does it come up for discussion so often? I dont care what you do as long as its in the scope of the law and doesnt involve my family. It falls under MYOB in my book.

 

[rmabrey]

Here is an excerpt of one of my posts from another thread. I would like to have a friendly discussion of OC vs. CC, and I would especially like to hear from the OC advocates on why you believe OC is better/advantageous.



I do think that there are venues for OC, and that it, at times, can be beneficial. I do also think that the practice of CC is generally the wiser path to take. Thoughts?

I think you have a better chance of seeing a leprechaun riding a unicorn that has monkeys flying out of its butt than having a "friendly" conversation about OC vs CC

 

[ATF Consumer]

taken from examiner.com...

As noted by the US Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) (striking down the DC gun ban), open carry was traditionally viewed socially and legally as preferable to concealed carry throughout most of the history of the United States.

But even many traditional concealed carriers, though believing that concealed carry is the best for them, are finally comin' around to acknowledging that the right to open carry is a valuable complimentary option to augent their privilege to conceal carry. Other gun owners believe open carry sometimes has the tactical advantage of deterrence, and the political upside of accelerating the "normalization of guns" in the United States, or in plain English, getting' gun carry out o' the closet.

 

[Bondhead88]

I think you have a better chance of seeing a leprechaun riding a unicorn that has monkeys flying out of its butt than having a "friendly" conversation about OC vs CC

Too funny,

One point I would make to Standingready (I almost want to call him Standswithafist, Go Dances with Wolves...lol)

The point you made about dangerous people, sometimes on drugs, sometimes mentally ill, most times just wanton criminals.

If you watch nature shows you do not see the Lions or Jackals or Hyenas attempting to take down a group of strong male Water Buffalo that they know will pose a danger to themselves when the young, the old or the weak are available, then they will go after a female by itself, then a male by it's self (boy that comment is gonna cause a whole other debate)

They know what to attack and what the best chances of success with the smallest chance of damage.

Now I both OC and CC depending on the situation (I don't OC at church as I think it is inappropriate,) as I type this however I am OCing at a McDonald's restaurant with my back against a wall and my gun side visible to anyone who passes by.

Why am I paranoid, no. But if I knew when and where I would always be safe then I would not have to carry at all as I could avoid those places. But the world is not like that.

I keep the best possible way of protecting myself (where I can ) at all times.

I liken it as well to Speed traps. If you put a traffic police car with lights and colors on the side of the road everybody slows down while they are in visible range, if there are several of these cars along the highway people go slow far out of visible range because now they know there is a police presence and there may be another car around the next bend because they have proved thy want to be a visible deterrent.

The unmarked car, yes it will catch speeders but it doesn't keep people from speeding why? Out of sight = out of mind!

By the way I hate speed traps....lol

 

[clgustaveson]

There are two arguments against open carry:

1) open carry marks you and escalated a situation
Or
2) open carry is ______

The first argument is false, misleading and dangerous.

The arguments you are making are wrong. You are stating the the only reason one would open carry is to be used as a deterant. This is fundamentally false.

Open Carry gives you many other tactical advantages: faster draw, larger guns, and deference.

If my open gun draws an assailant to me, rather than an unarmed citizen, I have done one thing right. Don't get me wrong, I am no hero but I play one on the Internet.

Very fee criminals are sociopaths, very fee would kill for tactical advantage. Less than 1% are sociopaths. MOST and by most I mean nearly ALL would avoid killing at all costs. The presence of a gun is a deterant in MOST situations.

 

[StandingReady]

No, I am not stating that it is the only reason (deterant), and I disagree with you that you are not "marked," because that it at face value is true. You're quickly noted by law abiding people because of the gun hanging on your hip, the same is true of the criminals who are watching.
My point about the escalation is not that it is automatic, just that it is more likely. Some guy comes in to rob the local Stop and Rob and didn't realize you were in there. He presents a gun to get the cash, but you don't think he is disposed to use it, yet he turns and sees you with your gun (still holstered, crap can happen fast). What do you think that will do to his mindset?
These are just scenarios/hypotheses and I really want to know what the OC crowd thinks about why it is superior.

Don't get me wrong, I am not telling you not to do it. I am merely stating my opinion and what I have seen in my experience. I have read a lot of the related posts on this forum too, and I knew the "leprechaun" occurrence would be more likely...

I also wanted to create a thread to make it clear that OC or CC, we are all on the same side, and I think some of the animosity between the two groups is ridiculous. I just want to hear some of the OC group's stronger arguments.

For the record too, I carried a full size Beretta 96 for years, completely concealed, without any problem getting to it quickly, and there aren't too many pistols much larger than that.

 

[ghostinthewood]

I think, and this is a novel idea, that each one has its on advantages and disadvantages. =o

Personally, I go to school (16credit hours) and I work at a tattoo shop between 30 and 35hrs a week. We're technically a Christian tattoo shop, but there are still shady people that come in. Don't get me wrong, we tattoo most of the police officers in the area, but there are still some shady people that come in. I would believe that if some of these people wanted something, they would get it and OC would make me a target. On top of that I cant always keep my elbow on my gun (assuming OWB). So i feel its better they dont know I have a gun and dont know where it is. I could be acting like I'm doing something else and since I'm normally tattooing I'd have to move before i can comply with any commands, so its very easy for me to act like I'm doing something while I'm grabbing my gun. I obviously dont carry at school. =p

Other people who are around more of the pick pocket types, punks, and what have you would most definitely benefit from OC.

I think that OC for most people is a liability, but if it works for someone and doesn't get anyone hurt I won't tell them any different. I expect the same respect though..

 

[ATF Consumer]

If a person wants to rob a place and sees someone OCing, they will more than likely not hold up the place than to escalate their troubles by involving the OCer. If I were a criminal and had intent on robbing a place, I certainly would not do it with any OCers around. Why would I want to increase the possible time served if caught or getting shot by adding another element to the issue. If the element of surprise was so important, LEO would not be in uniform or OC.
You have to ask yourself, what is more likely??? A bad guy targeting you because you are OCing, or bad guy turning around to find another target without the possibility of being shot. Then ask yourself if you want to risk a life because of reaction time...Carrying in condition 0, OC is the quickest reaction time you can get compared to any type of CC.Train and you will see how fractions of seconds count.

 

[youngda9]

sometimes being a good witness is better than getting involved. If you CC, you have an excellent chance of being able to choose which path to take. If you OC, you stand a high chance of having your hand forced, even if it escalates the situation or places other people in imminent danger because of the bad guy's response

I believe the above statement is a VERY important point. With CC you have many options. When the BG sees you OC, you have no options...he is going to focus his "attention" on you. This will happen whether or not you already know there is a BG in your midst (the evil actions of the BG have not yet begun and thus he appears to be a good guy such as yourself).

I prefer the sheep with teeth approach. I have surprise tactics on my side. I appear like everyone else, but I'm not.

Oh, by the way...IBTL

 

[lovemachine]

This is not really a fair argument/debate. There's no winning here.

There are the same number if advantages and disadvantages to each one.

What does matter is that you DO carry. And know how to handle yourself and your firearm the right way, in the right situation. That's where training comes in.

Open carry. Conceal carry. Who cares. Just carry dangit.

 

[clgustaveson]

No, I am not stating that it is the only reason (deterant), and I disagree with you that you are not "marked," because that it at face value is true. You're quickly noted by law abiding people because of the gun hanging on your hip, the same is true of the criminals who are watching.
My point about the escalation is not that it is automatic, just that it is more likely. Some guy comes in to rob the local Stop and Rob and didn't realize you were in there. He presents a gun to get the cash, but you don't think he is disposed to use it, yet he turns and sees you with your gun (still holstered, crap can happen fast). What do you think that will do to his mindset?
These are just scenarios/hypotheses and I really want to know what the OC crowd thinks about why it is superior.

Don't get me wrong, I am not telling you not to do it. I am merely stating my opinion and what I have seen in my experience. I have read a lot of the related posts on this forum too, and I knew the "leprechaun" occurrence would be more likely...

I also wanted to create a thread to make it clear that OC or CC, we are all on the same side, and I think some of the animosity between the two groups is ridiculous. I just want to hear some of the OC group's stronger arguments.

For the record too, I carried a full size Beretta 96 for years, completely concealed, without any problem getting to it quickly, and there aren't too many pistols much larger than that.

You did... let me show you.

There is no doubt that all else equal, an OC draw is faster, I think we can all agree on that. Yes, it CAN be a deterrent, however there are many cases in which uniformed officers were not a deterrent to aggressors who could have fled but chose instead to fight. The core of the OC argument is that it is always a deterrent, and that is simply not the case.

Now, if you don't think it is, then fine, I will let you back pedal from that point.

It is patently wrong to believe that OC people do it ONLY because they believe it is a deterrent.

Also, this statement you made is not an opinion, you are stating this to be fact and thus unless you state it is your opinion or perception of those that open carry it is meant to be statement without repute -- which you have already stated you disagree with, so I wont harp on you long about it.


Now is Open Carry more likely to escalate a situation than concealed carry?

This point is ONLY true if your weapon is never brought to realization. If you conceal carry in a situation where a weapon is going to be needed, it SHOULD be able to create the same metric as a readily available gun. If not, then you left it hidden under your big bulky jacket and didn't do what you had planned all those years not needing it.

So, again I am suggesting that your assumptions are again patently false.

A person carrying a gun on their hip in the open is not any more likely to escalate a situation than a person carrying a gun in a concealed fashion, unless the concealed gun is never used for its intended purpose.

To the next point:

What areas are most secure and protected from criminals? The answer would be areas where armed guards are present. A bank is more likely to get robbed if the guards are not armed, a store and any other locale is the same way. WHY CAN THIS BE?

By the reasoning presented in your argument, every bank with an armed guard should be "hit" first and the guard shot until dead.... ok now this is a statistic that somebody must have!

Security Devices Maintained by Victim Institutions

Alarm System​

5,891

Surveillance Cameras​

5,947

Bait Money​

3,837

Guards​

269

Tear Gas/Dye Packs​

1,469

Electronic Tracking​

630

Bullet-Resistant Enclosures​

565
According to the FBIs statistics the single largest deterring factor is "Guards"... More banks were hit using other methods of security than guards.

Out of the thousands of banks that were robbed in the year 2009 the smallest number had guards.

Security Devices Used During Crimes

Alarm System Activated​

5,450

Surveillance Cameras Activated​

5,822

Bait Money Taken​

1,981

Guards on Duty​

241

Tear Gas/Dye Packs Taken​

691

Electronic Tracking Activated​

372
This information found here:

FBI — Bank Crime Statistics 2009 Final

Bottom line, a weapon present IS a deterrent in most situations whether you like it or not.

Is it always? No, because their are some crazy m'fers out there and when they come calling I will probably shoot them before they shoot me, or at least I'll try. BUT they are very very very very very very rare.

 

[StandingReady]

The "core" argument of OC is the deterrent factor. There are other benefits, the "core" is the main one, not the "sole" factor. There is a big difference and one should not misconstrue terminology. The same would be said of the "core" argument of CC being the element of surprise. There are other benefits as well, but the core of the argument is discreet, secretive carry. It's not backpedaling, it's called articulation, and I could spell things out more clearly if that would help.

Police officers are usually uniformed because it is part of their job, and as has been evidenced by NUMEROUS officer deaths around the country, that has made them a target. Officers mainly wear a uniform for quick identification as LE, and for command presence (i.e. the bad guys cannot use a "I didn't know he was a cop defense).

 

[TopDog]

I just jumped in because I saw the word friendly mixed with OC vs CC.
I want to see how long this stays friendly.

 

[sj kahr k40]

This is not really a fair argument/debate. There's no winning here.

There are the same number if advantages and disadvantages to each one.

What does matter is that you DO carry. And know how to handle yourself and your firearm the right way, in the right situation. That's where training comes in.

Open carry. Conceal carry. Who cares. Just carry dangit.

I have to agree with this, just carry!

Man that hurt

 

[clgustaveson]

The "core" argument of OC is the deterrent factor. There are other benefits, the "core" is the main one, not the "sole" factor. There is a big difference and one should not misconstrue terminology. The same would be said of the "core" argument of CC being the element of surprise. There are other benefits as well, but the core of the argument is discreet, secretive carry. It's not backpedaling, it's called articulation, and I could spell things out more clearly if that would help.

Police officers are usually uniformed because it is part of their job, and as has been evidenced by NUMEROUS officer deaths around the country, that has made them a target. Officers mainly wear a uniform for quick identification as LE, and for command presence (i.e. the bad guys cannot use a "I didn't know he was a cop defense).

Right, it is a core argument I agree... But read what you said... You said ALWAYS.... That is why I quoted you. Only a silly man would say it is ALWAYs a deterant.

I'm not sure why your second paragraph was there... It was informative but pointless.

Articulate that please...

 

[rmabrey]

Is it to early for IBTL?

 

[clgustaveson]

Is it to early for IBTL?

Can you share your knowledge with me? lol

What's that mean?

 

[rmabrey]

Can you share your knowledge with me? lol

What's that mean?

In before the lock