A friendly discussion of OC vs CC

[sj kahr k40]

If you are oc'ing and I want your gun, I will get it and you can't stop me from getting it. And I am not that well trained.

Don't you guys realize that there are people in prison for years at a time that have nothing better to do than to train to do this or more? And believe me, they train on taking away your gun, ground fighting, and much more.

Police Officers train extensively on weapon retention but nowhere near the training of those folks they put into prison. They and you will also be reacting to the perp, who has planned the move.

Why do you delude yourselves to think that a exposed handgun is a deterrent? I suppose there is the false element of power and control involved.

You will be crying when your own gun is pressed against your forehead, before
you even realize what has happened....

Can you please find 5 instances of this happening? I've looked and can't seem to find any

 

[ATM]

If you are oc'ing and I want your gun, I will get it and you can't stop me from getting it. And I am not that well trained.

Anything you have can be taken from you if someone wants it so badly it outweighs the probable risks and consequences. I can kill you, take your wallet, your concealed gun, your keys, your vehicle and your dog. You can't stop me.

Don't you guys realize that there are people in prison for years at a time that have nothing better to do than to train to do this or more? And believe me, they train on taking away your gun, ground fighting, and much more.

And? Most criminals already have their own gun.

Police Officers train extensively on weapon retention but nowhere near the training of those folks they put into prison. They and you will also be reacting to the perp, who has planned the move.

Gun grabs against non-officers are extremely rare. I don't base my carry method on the extreme rarity but the most common.

Why do you delude yourselves to think that a exposed handgun is a deterrent? I suppose there is the false element of power and control involved.

It's the criminals that are deluding us. They say they avoid armed citizens more than officers.
They're probably lying so they can snatch our guns.
False element of power and control would be deluding oneself that they have the element of surprise or some advantage over the person preparing to attack them because the criminal will think they're an unarmed mark.

You will be crying when your own gun is pressed against your forehead, before you even realize what has happened....

Doubtful.

(The gun against the forehead part, not the crying.) I'd weep like a baby.

 

[youngda9]

What's next 9mm vs 45 ACP?

OC-ing a 9mm would deserve it's own thread...why oh why.

 

[youngda9]

Can you please find 5 instances of this happening? I've looked and can't seem to find any

 

[oldbanjo]

I think everyone should carry a Gun at all times, I will never OC (if it was legal in SC) in public, This isn't show and tell, I do think a BG can get more money stealing Guns than robing Stores. Some places you should not OC, most people that support OC want to OC everywhere. I was eating in a Restaurant in Israel, a man walked in dressed in, cut off jeans & "T" shirt carrying a Machine Gun. That didn't help me digest my meal because I had no way of knowing whose side he was on. In Israel when your in the Military your Gun must be with you 24 hours a day, if your hitch hiking, at the Beach or at the Waling Wall. I like Guns as much as anyone but I didn't like seeing them everywhere. Too many people get a permit and don't carry a Gun, I've carried a Gun sinse the mid 60's, so I 100% support carrying a Gun.

 

[clgustaveson]

I still think the fact that banks with guards were robbed far less than any other banks.... Is it just me or this actually a valid point?

 

[.40caltrucker]

Can you please find 5 instances of this happening? I've looked and can't seem to find any

According to the FBI crime stats in 08-09 there were 89 LEOs killed and 6 of them were with their own weapon. That's 5.34% of officers killed, small but it does happen.

 

[clgustaveson]

According to the FBI crime stats in 08-09 there were 89 LEOs killed and 6 of them were with their own weapon. That's 5.34% of officers killed, small but it does happen.

Oh... you better link to that $hiz.

 

[Glock18FA]

I still think the fact that banks with guards were robbed far less than any other banks.... Is it just me or this actually a valid point?

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

You really should do a ride along and see what kind of people criminals are as a whole and quit watching the movies.

 

[clgustaveson]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

You really should do a ride along and see what kind of people criminals are as a whole and quit watching the movies.

Excuse me? The stats were posted.

Also, I would like to point out that I have been a jurry consultant on many occassions given my experience and education in eyewitness testimony.

 

[Glock18FA]

According to the FBI crime stats in 08-09 there were 89 LEOs killed and 6 of them were with their own weapon. That's 5.34% of officers killed, small but it does happen.

Your talking about people that deal with criminals every day in the middle of that crime.

Give me statics on random cop killings with their own guns.

 

[Glock18FA]

Excuse me? The stats were posted.

Also, I would like to point out that I have been a jurry consultant on many occassions given my experience and education in eyewitness testimony.

edit, it looks like I miss understood your stance. I thought you were saying that banks with guards were targeted more than banks without.

Carry on.

 

[.40caltrucker]

Oh... you better link to that .

FBI — Uniform Crime Reports

There ya go. Scroll down to "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" In the overview it states the weapons used and gives a detailed description of each officer killed. Criminals are brave, I read a lot of the stories on there last night. It's horrifying, most of these LEO's didn't stand much of a chance. These should have never happened since OC is supposed to be a deterrent, right?

 

[clgustaveson]

It wouldnt have anything to do with the location of the banks would it?

If your opinion was true, then banks would never have hired guards.

What? You lost me.

Out of all the banks robbed in 2009 the smallest fraction were banks that had hired guards. Of all the other metrics this was the smallest. I think that statistics speaks louder than any of my opinions.

The second statement you made is completely irrelevant as I didn't post an opinion, but a hypothesis. Also, that statement is the opposite of what I am suggesting.

Bottom line, the presence of a weapon seemed to be a very good deterent.

 

[clgustaveson]

FBI — Uniform Crime Reports

There ya go. Scroll down to "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" In the overview it states the weapons used and gives a detailed description of each officer killed. Criminals are brave, I read a lot of the stories on there last night. It's horrifying, most of these LEO's didn't stand much of a chance. These should have never happened since OC is supposed to be a deterrent, right?

I wouldn't say never. There is a portion of the population that would do this, which is about 1%. I would then point out this population is higher among criminals, which is documented about 5%. I think the stats fit the metric then...

 

[.40caltrucker]

Your talking about people that deal with criminals every day in the middle of that crime.

Give me statics on random cop killings with their own guns.

Ok I'll jump right on that for ya!

I gave stats of trained officers getting their guns taken from them and used to kill them, and somehow that's not good enough. Those stats only count the officers killed feloniously. They don't include officers who were shot with their own gun and lived. I would like to find that stat, for some reason I bet it's higher.

 

[clgustaveson]

Ok I'll jump right on that for ya!

I gave stats of trained officers getting their guns taken from them and used to kill them, and somehow that's not good enough. Those stats only count the officers killed feloniously. They don't include officers who were shot with their own gun and lived. I would like to find that stat, for some reason I bet it's higher.

Are you saying cops are hard headed?

 

[youngda9]

Cops wrestle with bad guys all the time, they chase them, tackle them, handcuff them, etc...so this doesn't surprise me that they lose their guns and get shot with them in these altercations.

The issue is for civilians OC-ing. I want to see 5 instances of it happening to civilians. I haven't heard about that in the news, not at all.

 

[ATM]

...These should have never happened since OC is supposed to be a deterrent, right?

I think we've already established the huge difference between LEOs and others who simply OC. We know it, the criminals know it.

Officer statistics are a completely different category of instances.

 

[clgustaveson]

Cops wrestle with bad guys all the time, they chase them, tackle them, handcuff them, etc...so this doesn't surprise me that they lose their guns and get shot with them in these altercations.

The issue is for civilians OC-ing. I want to see 5 instances of it happening to civilians. I haven't heard about that in the news, not at all.

Maybe the Colts could take some lessons?