A friendly discussion of OC vs CC

[clgustaveson]

Oh it's so friendly... It won't get locked... Haha

 

[rmabrey]

Oh it's so friendly... It won't get locked... Haha

give it time

 

[clgustaveson]

It won't take long if I play my cards right...

 

[JoshuaW]

While you have a rationalized argument, you do make some broad statements. I CAN and WILL tell you that OC is a good deterrent. You are assuming all criminals are hardened, ruthless killers who would target you so that they can do their evil with little to no resistance. That simply isnt the case though, most criminals commit their crimes as crimes of opportunity. Do you honestly believe Joe the Thug is just itching to graduate from armed robbery to murder? Probably multiple murders, since he wont want to leave witnesses?

Yes, some people are just plain evil. Some criminals will have no problem with killing you over some speakers or a few hundred bucks. However, why bother? They can go down the road and not kill someone for the same thing!

 

[Sylvain]

Why does it has to be OC vs CC all the time.
Just do what's best for you, I dont think that there is any ultimate way to carry.
You can do whatever you want, you can even do both at the same time.
What's next 9mm vs 45 ACP?

 

[LPMan59]

i like to OC and CC at the same time. that way i have a deterrent and the element of surprise.

 

[turnandshoot4]

they would get it and OC would make me a target.

This still confuses me. Why would a criminal KNOWINGLY risk their life for $100? For $1,000? I highly doubt it. They are LAZY. This is why they don't work. Why would they want to work during a robbery?

 

[ATM]

Thank you for bringing this post to its own new thread.

There is no doubt that all else equal, an OC draw is faster, I think we can all agree on that. Yes, it CAN be a deterrent, however there are many cases in which uniformed officers were not a deterrent to aggressors who could have fled but chose instead to fight.

Criminals fear armed citizens more than officers and for different reasons.
Armed citizens generally won't be interacting or attempting to arrest them and might not be as hesitant or give warning before shooting them.

The core of the OC argument is that it is always a deterrent, and that is simply not the case.

I've never heard anyone claim that OC is always a deterrent.
However, it is a deterrent in the most common cases and it would be very hard for you to argue that it doesn't most generally play a deterring role in the victim selection phase before the criminal act.

Whether it be impairment from controlled substances, mental issues, extreme bias towards someone, etc, there is not always a rational explanation for the course of action taken. That being said, as an OC'er, what you have to realize is that you, much like a uniformed police officer, very much pose a threat of being caught to the bad guy, both in an objective approach (I mean that IS why you carry, right?) and in the bad guy's subjective opinion.

Self preservation will generally be intact during crimes. I explained the difference between me OCing and an officer. I have no duty or desire to "catch" anyone - that's NOT why I carry. I'm not trying to lure them in so I can use it, I carry to hopefully deter or, if needed, stop a crime.

While I do applaud the people who take it upon themselves to put themselves in harm's way, through carrying a firearm or otherwise, I think there should be an element of wisdom in it (i.e. sometimes being a good witness is better than getting involved.

Sometimes. Other times the witness doesn't make it out alive to tell of the events. Sometimes he blended in so well with the "safer" targets he was selected for the act of criminal violence. Sometimes he'll get very lucky and still be able to draw his "teeth", other times not.

If you CC, you have an excellent chance of being able to choose which path to take.

How excellent is your chance of knowing the outcome in foresight?
How excellent are your chances that you will never be the target of the crime in your hypotheticals?
Is being the witness to a store robbery really the most probable scenario (it is the default standard by which most who prefer CC claim they will maintain the choice for these discussions) or are personal attacks, muggings, carjackings, rapes, etc. more prevalent issues to consider?

If you OC, you stand a high chance of having your hand forced, even if it escalates the situation or places other people in imminent danger because of the bad guy's response).

Possibly in the very limited scenario you'd like to work from.
Generally, though, no. If you OC, you probably stand a higher chance of being threatened by an officer than most bad guys. The chances of either happening seems extremely remote.

You cannot legitimately argue that the targeting of a police officer because of the obvious visible threat he poses to a bad guy (or bad guy's freedom) doesn't apply to someone OC'ing.

Of course I can. Police officers enforce laws, targeting and pursuing criminals as their job. I defend myself or third parties from violence. That's about it.
Officers are much more likely to be targeted than I, as simply an armed citizen. That's another reason not to wear those silly carry badges. From a distance, I might be confused with the law. I don't want that ...for my own safety. There IS a difference to criminals.

You also cannot argue that the good guys are usually behind the curve responding to a threat. That being said, no matter how fast you are, if the bad guy has a drop on you because he knows you are a threat before you know he is, then you rarely stand a chance of beating someone from the draw (or even as we well know, even an aggressor within 21 feet can pose an imminent threat and close that distance before the average person can break leather).

The attacker gets the drop on everyone whether they possess hidden or visible means of defense. They get to use surprise - it is a great offensive tactic. Surprise just doesn't exist for the defender.
If someone attacks you without expecting that you might decide to fight back by any means possible, I guess they deserve to be "surprised" if they allow you to dig out a weapon and attempt to use it. This level of stupidity makes for very short criminal careers. This was obviously their first attack and you now get to school them. Congrats! (but don't count on it being the norm.)

If you choose to CC, you stand a much better chance of controlling the situation in which you are, the timing in which it happens, and whether or not you even choose to go that route.

You state this as fact but I think it's just your opinion based on that limited scenario of choice (store robbery bystander) again.
I doubt you could glean these assumptions from actual crime statistics.

You also stand a greater chance of yielding an element of surprise and placing yourself in a position of advantage, at which point, even the bad guy will usually (not always) have some thought process of self preservation if he knows his chances of turning the tables are slim.

You really want that defensive surprise tactic to be real, don't you?
It does sound cool (hidden hero saves the day) but it's actually a rather rare anomaly unless you get very lucky, having the favorable type of crime, layout and a really stupid criminal that allows it. Again, I wouldn't count on it being the norm.

It is much like you as an OC'er being approached from a position of advantage by a bad guy who has spotted you first, and you knowing that you are not only well behind the curve time-wise, but also in a physical position of disadvantage. There's two strikes, can you guess what the third is and do you really want to have to be in that position to try it?

I'd rather not be in that position, no. Would someone concealing fare better against the same approach? No. I'll take my chances that he is among the majority of criminals who admit being deterred by armed citizens when they select victims. Good luck with pretending to be unarmed and feigning weakness. Hope that works out for you.

There are some instances in which OC might be a good idea (for instance in states or areas where it is very prevalent and you can count on multiple good guys in an area practicing it), however, most of the time, you are hard pressed to legitimately argue that OC is overall a better choice than CC.

I hate that you lost me on the one described instance where OC is a good idea, but I don't see how an area's prevalence of OC would impact my choice of carry method. Those who are worried about social acceptance might consider that a factor but I consider it insignificant.

And I do think I can legitimately argue that OC is overall a better choice than CC for me. I can defend my logic and reasoning while questioning yours. I will not condemn others' carry choices (not that you are, either) but I do enjoy debating the reasons given. A few come up over and over and over again. People should examine each point from every angle and then, from a reasonably informed position make their choices based on whatever they deem most practical or comfortable for their own needs.
I like it that Hoosiers may choose for themselves.

My condolences go out to the families of the officers who were killed. These officers, like many others, were a primary target of violent offenders because of the visible threat they posed to the bad guy's plans. A threat that is not perceived by the bad guy as much different than the law abiding citizen who is carrying openly.

Every poll of criminals I have seen refutes this assumption.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I am trying to convey the greatest tactical advantage to people who are well-intended and try to go above and beyond in their civic duties. I am trying to keep you safe, and keep bad situations from unnecessarily escalating. Be careful out there, keep your wits about you, and keep your head on a swivel.

Agreed. (except the pot stirring part, I like doing that. )
Most tend to make stronger decisions from a wider perspective after hashing out thoughts and ideas with those who disagree.

Carry on.

 

[LPMan59]

This still confuses me. Why would a criminal KNOWINGLY risk their life for $100? For $1,000? I highly doubt it. They are LAZY. This is why they don't work. Why would they want to work during a robbery? How many on duty police OC'ing get robbed? What is the difference? The badge? The boots? Nothing?

wasnt a cop killed in chicago not too long ago when some jackwad grabbed his gun? i remember when i was a student at Butler a few years ago, one of the BUPD officers was killed when some mentally ill guy grabbed his gun.

there are certainly examples of cops being targeted and shot with their own weapons. just sayin'.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Fair enough. That being said there was a lack of training involved in every case.

 

[modelflyer2003]

Said too many times in the OP is the statement "You cannot argue that...". The writer is trying to force the reader to accept his thought process by limiting the options for a conclusion. Everything is arguable. Some cannot even accept the fact that the Holocaust took place. Just my two cents. I read a lot of medical research articles which are based on facts backed by resources and past research. Reading someones opinion claimed to be facts is unsettling.

 

[ATM]

"You cannot argue that...".

I like to prove them wrong just by arguing that.


"Yes I can."

 

[rmabrey]

come on guys. 4 pages in and nobody is neg repping yet?

 

[ATM]

come on guys. 4 pages in and nobody is neg repping yet?

Repped.

Better?

 

[rmabrey]

Better?

I knew you were going to do that


I should have prefaced that with a reminder that i can subtract over 1000 rep points with a neg rep

 

[.40caltrucker]

Why even be discussing this? I never tuck my shirt in, some people always tuck their shirt in. I wear a hat, some don't. I drive an automatic car, some prefer manual. ( I drive a 10 speed manual truck and that's enough shifting for me) I drive a Chevy, some prefer Ford. (even though I don't understand why I don't try to persuade them to drive Chevy.) Ok Ok I do give them a hard time sometimes, like when I'm towing them home.

My point is it's legal either way and boils down to preference. I OC when out shooting, and CC in public. That's my preference and nothing will convince me to do otherwise.

Ever heard the saying "Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion"? If not just listen to Dave Ramsey for a little while!

 

[ATM]

My point is it's legal either way and boils down to preference.

Which one?

Emotional preference
Historical preference
Popular preference
Well-informed preference
Uninformed preference
Ill-informed preference

Preferences are swayed all the time through research, experience, discussion, etc.
Nobody here can force what or why you prefer something, but they can give unconsidered perspectives which you may weigh at your own leisure or not.

Some people say arguing never solves anything.

I, of course, disagree.

 

[Jeremiah]

the correct answer is let everyone be armed. Whether by OC, CC, or just a rifle slung on their back, there would be no need for senseless arguments. If everyone were armed the criminals would need be more concerned about retaliation from bystanders and teh argument of "it makes you a target" would be moot.

 

[ATM]

the correct answer is let everyone be armed. Whether by OC, CC, or just a rifle slung on their back, there would be no need for senseless arguments. If everyone were armed the criminals would need be more concerned about retaliation from bystanders and teh argument of "it makes you a target" would be moot.

Most everyone can be armed. Many just choose not to.

Like guns, I shouldn't have to show need just to have an argument.

Moot arguments are still fun.

 

[sloughfoot]

If you are oc'ing and I want your gun, I will get it and you can't stop me from getting it. And I am not that well trained.

Don't you guys realize that there are people in prison for years at a time that have nothing better to do than to train to do this or more? And believe me, they train on taking away your gun, ground fighting, and much more.

Police Officers train extensively on weapon retention but nowhere near the training of those folks they put into prison. They and you will also be reacting to the perp, who has planned the move.

Why do you delude yourselves to think that a exposed handgun is a deterrent? I suppose there is the false element of power and control involved.

You will be crying when your own gun is pressed against your forehead, before you even realize what has happened....