A Refugee Crisis, Not an Immigration Crisis

[IndyDave1776]

Can't we just ship them up to Detroit and then on to Canada. Detroit is just like a third world county.

Just leave them in Detroit. The Canucks won't have to worry about them and neither will we.

 

[mrjarrell]

Elian Gonzalez wasn't a refugee.

Actually, I think he met the criteria very well to be considered a refugee. And he should have been left with his family in Florida.

 

[88GT]

My point exactly. Refugee status is arbitrary and largely dependent on the political climate.

Of course, he wasn't really a refugee. He had family here.

 

[mrjarrell]

No argument against any of this here. My question is why you are so hell-bent on throwing the doors wide open to any damned body who wants to help himself. While I am apparently not as old as you are, I have invested my share of efforts into working for these changes. So far, it hasn't worked out so well as you are well aware.

I'm for dropping the walls where refugees are concerned. It's just that simple. Refugees make good citizens in time. My family and I worked with Operation Babylift after Vietnam. Guess we should have turned those damned planes around and sent them right back where they came from. Thankfully that point of view was very rare back then. All those kids, and the adults who also managed to make it are now good citizens. I can live with those kinds of folks.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Maybe we should just scrap the old girl.

 

[mrjarrell]

My point exactly. Refugee status is arbitrary and largely dependent on the political climate.

Of course, he wasn't really a refugee. He had family here.

So do some of these kids at the border. They'd sure like to be reunited with their families, too.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm for dropping the walls where refugees are concerned. It's just that simple. Refugees make good citizens in time. My family and I worked with Operation Babylift after Vietnam. Guess we should have turned those damned planes around and sent them right back where they came from. Thankfully that point of view was very rare back then. All those kids, and the adults who also managed to make it are now good citizens. I can live with those kinds of folks.

Maybe we should just scrap the old girl.

Interesting. You equate the evacuation of babies to families ready to adopt them with foreign nationals, many on the threshold of adulthood, crashing our border and saying, "I'm here, feed me". My guess is that the problem with those Vietnamese children had much to do with their parentage as the country was overrun by those who were both hostile to the US and had a problem with, well, those of mixed heritage. The bottom line is that this effort served to correct a problem we caused, which is entirely different than foreign nationals showing up just because they decided they want to be here.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

One does not get a pass on the tragedy that he causes.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

One does not get a pass on the tragedy that he causes.

Please...for the love of god...tell me that's not a high capacity clip on that gun he's playing with.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Kirk, being eaten alive by jackals would be too good a demise for that piece of sh*t.

 

[mrjarrell]

Interesting that. A problem we cause. These countries south of us are dealing with the fallout of something we caused, too. Our drug war has managed to destabilise their countries and empower the narco traffickers. But I guess we don't owe these victims anything as they try to escape the consequences of our failed drug war and the gang members we deported back there.

 

[Henry]

One does not get a pass on the tragedy that he causes.

The hell with that bastard.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Interesting that. A problem we cause. These countries south of us are dealing with the fallout of something we caused, too. Our drug war has managed to destabilise their countries and empower the narco traffickers. But I guess we don't owe these victims anything as they try to escape the consequences of our failed drug war and the gang members we deported back there.

OK, so it is our fault that there are criminals in these countries. I will grant you that given the position none of these criminals caught here would be deported, at least not alive. That said, I fail to see where these countries were bastions of stable and benevolent government long before the admittedly useless and damaging war on drugs had been contemplated. Not buying it. If we are expected to take care of our own problems, leveraging legislators, etc, why can't they deal with their own?

Barring that, let blood flow like a river. When there are no more senior criminals and no more crooks in government, see how well the peasants rebuild. Especially Mexico. I am so sick of their government assisting in the violation of our laws and allowing their military to engage in malfeasance on my side of the border, if I were in the position to deal with it, they would have a week to get it in hand or their successors would have an additional weak after cleaning up the corpses in the Federal District.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

mrjarrell -

Their governments were extremely crooked without any assistance from us. Granted the drugs and the war on drugs have caused more issues for them. But they have also gotten aid as well from us.

What I propose is not the sort of open border that you propose. I propose that we need CLARITY. Not this wink-wink nudge-nudge iguana that both parties have been dishing out for 50 years.

I'm all for LEGAL immigration. Set it up, expand it - and verify that the folks coming in are not criminals and thugs. But up the numbers! That said, in order to expand LEGAL immigration - SHUT THE BORDER DOWN to ILLEGAL immigration.

Alternatively - annex Mexico and get it over with.

 

[88GT]

So do some of these kids at the border. They'd sure like to be reunited with their families, too.

Then they can follow protocol and enter legally.

Interesting that. A problem we cause. These countries south of us are dealing with the fallout of something we caused, too. Our drug war has managed to destabilise their countries and empower the narco traffickers. But I guess we don't owe these victims anything as they try to escape the consequences of our failed drug war and the gang members we deported back there.

Oh for the love of all that's stupid beyond belief. Now the failures of other countries is our fault too? Your credibility is tanking.

 

[poptab]

OK, so you have established that both parties have a large number of f*cking retards. Please tell us something that we don't already know. Further, so far as I am concerned, having two disparate groups of retards agreeing on something demonstrates that the idea is truly dumber than owl sh*t.

Did you get hacked or you been drinking? Little harsh

 

[IndyDave1776]

Did you get hacked or you been drinking? Little harsh

Neither. Some days I just have less patience with incredibly stupid arguments than others.

 

[Twangbanger]

...There was a time when I was convinced that you were basically what you presented yourself to be. I cannot comprehend a point at which libertarian and socialist thought meet in a way that they can philosophically coexist. Taken in combination with your open ill will toward Republicans, I am left to conclude that you are nothing but a socialist with habits that keep you in venues in which open socialism is not generally welcomed.

In other words...a socialist who likes guns?

...I will defer to your judgment and understand that a libertarian is someone who makes a cottage industry of b*tching about excessive government but then somehow believes that the government forcibly taking my money for redistribution is acceptable so long as it is for the benefit of foreign invaders and not our own people...

Wow, Dave, I have to hand it to you, when you're in the zone, I wouldn't want to be pitching against you. You've kept the drunks outside the Great American Ballpark chasing home run balls across the parking lot all night. INGO kudos to you.

This discussion squarely frames a significant part of the reason why the Libertarian Party cannot get a serious hearing by reasonable people in this country. When it gets right down to it, their immigration policy is: Open Borders. They believe, and will tell you they believe, that the Government has no moral right to limit the free flow of persons across its borders. And the American public simply looks at that, and says - bullshot. Just as America cannot and should not be the world's policeman - nor can it be the world's soup kitchen and flop house. You want to come here? Get in line, take a number, follow the rules. We may not agree with all the rules, all the time, and it's pointless to debate the arcana of every single arbitrary rule and reg some fevered politician ever thought up at one time or another. But for purposes of this discussion, it's simple enough to say that when we see someone brazenly flouting and circumventing those rules, we call bullshot. Even the comrades-in-ideas of the Obama Phone Lady can grasp this simple point: America cannot provide for every 2nd world refugee in existence - it's just not our g-damn problem.

Mr.J, you've gotten yourself dragged by your hair all over this discussion, by people who care about and love their country, whether you agree with them or not. You can choose to take this drubbing one of two ways. Either you can take this to heart, and understand that until your bunch changes its views on immigration, Libertarianism will never amount to more than a pimple on the azz of American politics.

Or, you can come up with some kind of hissy retort. Your choice.

 

[88GT]

C'mon now. Y'all are being just a tad overly critical of mrjarrell. All of the other small government, libertarian minarchists have taken the "let them all in and use another $3.7B of confiscated monies to pay for their room and board" position. Good, small government people like bogan and level.eleven.


On a side note, it cracks me up that the iPad wants to change minarchist to monarchist.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

They'd sure like to be reunited with their families, too.

Then we should do the humanitarian thing and give'em a sack lunch on there plane ride back .

. But I guess we don't owe these victims anything as they try to escape the consequences of our failed drug war and the gang members we deported back there.

We don't owe these criminals anything but an ass kicking all the way home .

If their country is a **** hole then I think it's incumbent upon THEM to do what is needed to fix it , not just run away from the problem and bring their BS here .

 

[printcraft]

Hey, look. Here's one of the little darlings now...

Poor little guy.

He has a facial deformity and is ashamed to be seen in public, combine that with the palsy he is afflicted with and it's a sad case all around.

Can we donate to help this poor guy?
What? We already are?
We're good people.