ATTN: Range Nazis

[10-32]

I just want them to back off the girls I bring to the range that I'm teaching to shoot. 1, Neither one of us asked for your help. 2, There is no need EVER for you to grab them by the hips ESPECIALLY if they are a minor. 3, If they can produce targets like these on day 1 your help is obviously NOT needed.

I've never had a issue at either one of the ranges in these pictures (Parabellum and Indy Trading Post) but there is range on the South East side I will NEVER take a female to again.

 

[Trigger Time]

I just want them to back off the girls I bring to the range that I'm teaching to shoot. 1, Neither one of us asked for your help. 2, There is no need EVER for you to grab them by the hips ESPECIALLY if they are a minor. 3, If they can produce targets like these on day 1 your help is obviously NOT needed.

I've never had a issue at either one of the ranges in these pictures (Parabellum and Indy Trading Post) but there is range on the South East side I will NEVER take a female to again.

Uep I think we are talking about the same range but I'm pretty sure they fired that dirty bastard because he had so many complaints and was touching lots of women and doing other creepy stuff!

 

[worddoer]

#1

Being a private club I don't know why you are having any issues at all. Get rid of them or better screen applicants.

#2

Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it that annoys people.

#1...Because until the last 2 years, we were an unmonitored range. People came and left as they pleased. And it seems everyone from all the surrounding counties who were not members of the club came and went as they pleased as well. Apparently many had made it a habit of parking down the road so they could walk onto the range since they did not have the combination to the gate. Due to these type of people and their apparent lack of safety, accusations were made against the range and our neighbors filed complaints against the range. Now we are a monitored range only and have not had an issue since. But some of our old members developed bad habits that may not have mattered to them when they were by themselves at the range. Now with others always present, it matters a great deal. The frequent offenders have been dealt with either by correction or by other means. How would you "better screen applicants"? All of our members must attend a range safety course and they sign an acknowledgment our range rules before being allowed to participate. Some just think it is for show and we really don't mean it. Until an RSO like myself holds them accountable, most mistakes in the past were never seen. It seems that the errors we are seeing are a function of changing to a monitored range. As time has gone by, things have been slowly improving.

#2 I agree with you completely about the tone used. I always try my best to have a positive and explanatory tone when I hold someone to the rules. If said pleasantly and reasonably, almost everyone is understanding and willing to accommodate. But still there are some that no matter how nice you say things, or how reasonable your request, they want to tell you to shove it. And it generally boils down to 2 type of people. Either they think they know better than everyone else and a mistake will never happen to them because they have somehow achieved firearm perfection....or they are of the opinion that they somehow attained ownership in the range and it is their own private place to shoot and how dare anyone tell them what to do.

Ultimately, I don't care your reasoning. If anyone is being unsafe, then I will say it again....

I can tell you as an RSO, I would rather have someone think I am a (insert expletive here) rather than have someone get shot or killed while I am on duty. Having some fun at the range is not worth your life or the life of anyone else at the range.

 

[looney2ns]

I've called out a few at our range. I almost always get the "But I've been handling firearms for 20 years!!!"

My standard reply is "Guess you have been doing it wrong alllll that time".


At our club, you screw up and continue to screw up, you get ousted permanently.

 

[Drail]

Whoever is instructing those girls REALLY needs to teach them to learn forward - not back away from the gun. It's absolutely natural for new female shooters to lean back away from the gun. Almost all of them will do this. Correct them as soon as they do it. Show them by example - there is no need to touch them. They may shoot a nice target that way but they'll shoot much better if they lean forward. It doesn't need to be extremely aggressive - just enough to get their shoulders in front of their waist. If they learn to shoot leaning back and someone hands them a heavy kicking gun someday - they're going to get knocked on their butt. It's also a very wise practice to NEVER have different guns of different calibers and different magazines all laying on the bench at the same time - especially with new shooters. If you have to ask why - then you shouldn't be instructing anyone else.

 

[HamYankee]

I only shot at Atterbury one time. The range officer sapped all the fun out of it. Haven't been back since.

 

[HamYankee]

I had a good experience with Guy at Eagle Creek. No issues, but yeah, it probably happens everywhere with a managed range.
I love ECC. It has everything I need, nothing I don't.

I shot at Eagle Creek Range and they had a couple rude range officers who made it a point to develop superiority. Had nothing to do with safety.

 

[Notalentbum]

It's also a very wise practice to NEVER have different guns of different calibers and different magazines all laying on the bench at the same time - especially with new shooters. If you have to ask why - then you shouldn't be instructing anyone else.

Apparently, I'm an idiot because every time I go to the range with my pistols I lay them all out with their magazines. I've never tried to put my .45 mag in my .22 or vice-versa.
I have to ask, what's the big no-no?

Matt

 

[Sniper 79]

Seen it and experienced it many times. I switched clubs and only shoot if I am alone now. Not worth the headache of dealing with nor do I have the time or patience.

When I am at the range I have work to do. Practice, sighting in a new gun, testing hand loads, whatever the case may be. I have to make the most of my short range trips.

I will not tolerate a know it all range Nazi. Funny how they are generally the ones putting holes in things that don't need holes and covering people with the muzzle and handling guns while people are down range checking targets.

 

[LoriW]

My range is a private club but there are no RSO's. Everyone polices themselves and usually it's not a problem. I have seen people handling guns while I'm downrange checking targets. There was also an older couple out once getting their guns ready for deer season (that's another story) who, when everyone else was ready for a cold range and had stepped back from the guns, HAD to fire whatever was already in his gun instead of just unloading it. Just kinda irritating but not unsafe.

Whoever is instructing those girls REALLY needs to teach them to learn forward - not back away from the gun. It's absolutely natural for new female shooters to lean back away from the gun. Almost all of them will do this. Correct them as soon as they do it. Show them by example - there is no need to touch them. They may shoot a nice target that way but they'll shoot much better if they lean forward. It doesn't need to be extremely aggressive - just enough to get their shoulders in front of their waist. If they learn to shoot leaning back and someone hands them a heavy kicking gun someday - they're going to get knocked on their butt. It's also a very wise practice to NEVER have different guns of different calibers and different magazines all laying on the bench at the same time - especially with new shooters. If you have to ask why - then you shouldn't be instructing anyone else.

When I'm helping new shooters at my Well Armed Woman meetings, I almost always have to get them to lean forward. I can usually get away with putting one hand on their shoulder and 1 hand on tummy to push them and pull them lol. I would not do this with a man or want a man to touch me like that without permission.

Apparently, I'm an idiot because every time I go to the range with my pistols I lay them all out with their magazines. I've never tried to put my .45 mag in my .22 or vice-versa.
I have to ask, what's the big no-no?

Matt

Just the possibility of a new shooter putting the wrong mag in the wrong gun. Problem solved if you're watching them like you're supposed to be.

 

[Beowulf]

Apparently, I'm an idiot because every time I go to the range with my pistols I lay them all out with their magazines. I've never tried to put my .45 mag in my .22 or vice-versa.
I have to ask, what's the big no-no?

Matt

You've clearly never had to remove a Beretta 92 magazine from a Glock 17 (the process involves a mallet and a punch).

When dealing with new shooters, particularly groups of them, you'd be amazed at what mistakes they'll make. I'm always amazed at the failures they can generate on guns I consider rock solid. It just goes to show you that it is really tough to idiot proof something.

Then again, I don't know that many INGOers routinely end up teaching decent size groups of newbie shooters, typically from other countries where they aren't allowed to own firearms and thus have zero experience with guns of any type (I work for a company with international offices and have gained the reputation as the "gun go-to-guy", so when people travel in to our Indy HQ, they often seek me out and ask me to take them shooting for the first time). So, this advice may not really apply to most people.

 

[NKBJ]

Yall are making me despair that I'm moving to Indiana.
Guess I'm gonna miss the range out back.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

It's not just you Beowulf and it's not just new shooters. Several of us work with lots of new shooters and even people like myself who have shot several rounds still do stupid things like unknowingly pick up a .40 off the table and insert it into my .45 mag and shoot it. (Kimber shot it, had to pop the casing out of the chamber with a rod and the round hit the target but keyholed).

You've clearly never had to remove a Beretta 92 magazine from a Glock 17 (the process involves a mallet and a punch).

When dealing with new shooters, particularly groups of them, you'd be amazed at what mistakes they'll make. I'm always amazed at the failures they can generate on guns I consider rock solid. It just goes to show you that it is really tough to idiot proof something.

Then again, I don't know that many INGOers routinely end up teaching decent size groups of newbie shooters, typically from other countries where they aren't allowed to own firearms and thus have zero experience with guns of any type (I work for a company with international offices and have gained the reputation as the "gun go-to-guy", so when people travel in to our Indy HQ, they often seek me out and ask me to take them shooting for the first time). So, this advice may not really apply to most people.

 

[10-32]

Whoever is instructing those girls REALLY needs to teach them to learn forward - not back away from the gun. It's absolutely natural for new female shooters to lean back away from the gun. Almost all of them will do this. Correct them as soon as they do it. Show them by example - there is no need to touch them. They may shoot a nice target that way but they'll shoot much better if they lean forward. It doesn't need to be extremely aggressive - just enough to get their shoulders in front of their waist. If they learn to shoot leaning back and someone hands them a heavy kicking gun someday - they're going to get knocked on their butt. It's also a very wise practice to NEVER have different guns of different calibers and different magazines all laying on the bench at the same time - especially with new shooters. If you have to ask why - then you shouldn't be instructing anyone else.

First off, I Am going to ask why. That statement you made sounds like that of a closed minded controlling person. I like to keep an OPEN MIND and continue to learn. Closed minded, stuck in their ways, this gun is what's best for you/this is the one you're going to learn with, instructors are the worst kind.

Threads always come up on here about which gun should I get my wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother or what ever the female relation. The answer is simple. ​The one they feel most comfortable with holding and shooting. What's the easiest way to find that gun? Bring everyone I own and let them hold it, grip it and then run a mag or two through it. You don't just walk into a gun shop and say "That one looks good, I'll take it." No you hold it, grip it, and maybe rack the slide a couple of times. But when I bring all my guns, they get the added bonus of actually being able to fire it. I have yet to find a gun shop that will let you test fire a gun. I've been to a couple that will you fire the rental version of a gun for a fee, but that's it. Once they find the one they like, we stick with that one. I've also had people step back and say "Let me see how you do it, let me see how you shoot." So yeah, there's going to be mags from my gun also. So I ask again, WHY?

On their first day, I'm more concerned with SAFTEY, a good grip, a smooth trigger pull and that they are comfortable and enjoy the experience. If they get hurt at all or don't enjoy the experience, chances are they will walk away and not try it again. If they produce targets like I pictured, they walk away with a smile on their face and they WANT to continue to learn.

The angle of the camera does make it look like they're a little off balance but I do position them into the two popular stances and make sure they aren't off balance and let them decide which they like better. When it comes to stance, the thing I stress most is stand how you're comfortable and are not off balance. Also these women (and girl) that I'm teaching want to learn for self defense not marksman tournaments. They want to learn to protect themselves. Chances are when they do have to protect themselves, they will be shooting on the move which I work on with them later. Any other concerns about stance, see the video below.

[video=youtube_share;YXXJslPrVzk]http://youtu.be/YXXJslPrVzk[/video]

 

[bwframe]

.................. Yeager vid in thread about Range Nazi's...

 

[10-32]

.................. Yeager vid in thread about Range Nazi's...

Actually the T.R. team of instructors weren't anything like 1/2 the range Nazis I've seen around here. The only time any of them blew up was day 1 of Fighting Pistol. At the beginning of class at the range we had "That Guy" who showed up without his gear on and a empty gun. The dumb@#$^% was standing there with rest of us loading his gun and had a ND right after he racked the slide.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

I haven't seen "that guy" since his crackerjack box Lazer fell off of his SW .40 whilst he was demonstrating his prowess to his "protoge".

Said protoge had some small difficulty maintaining a straight face when I handed it to him.

 

[Drail]

You are seriously asking why they need to be leaning forward? You really don't see any advantage in teaching that? You think I am just forcing "my stance" on them? Really? And if they're leaning back when the gun recoils somehow THAT is going to help with their shooting skills? Really? Guess what? Teaching students to lean forward is STRAIGHT out of the NRA Instructor's course book. I guess we were teaching incorrect techniques to all of the students we taught for so many years. And you want to compare me to James Yeager? James Yeager?? Really? Thank you for that wonderful insult. Really.

 

[10-32]

You are seriously asking why they need to be leaning forward? You really don't see any advantage in teaching that? And you are going to compare me to James Yeager because I pointed it out? James Yeager?? Really? Thank you for the insult. You must be a great teacher.

I was asking WHY to this statement that you made below. At no time in my statement did I ever question why to leaning forward.

It's also a very wise practice to NEVER have different guns of different calibers and different magazines all laying on the bench at the same time - especially with new shooters. If you have to ask why - then you shouldn't be instructing anyone else.

Then I gave you my reason for having so many different gun out which was this response.

First off, I Am going to ask why. That statement you made sounds like that of a closed minded controlling person. I like to keep an OPEN MIND and continue to learn. Closed minded, stuck in their ways, this gun is what's best for you/this is the one you're going to learn with, instructors are the worst kind.

Threads always come up on here about which gun should I get my wife, girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother or what ever the female relation. The answer is simple. ​The one they feel most comfortable with holding and shooting. What's the easiest way to find that gun? Bring everyone I own and let them hold it, grip it and then run a mag or two through it. You don't just walk into a gun shop and say "That one looks good, I'll take it." No you hold it, grip it, and maybe rack the slide a couple of times. But when I bring all my guns, they get the added bonus of actually being able to fire it. I have yet to find a gun shop that will let you test fire a gun. I've been to a couple that will you fire the rental version of a gun for a fee, but that's it. Once they find the one they like, we stick with that one. I've also had people step back and say "Let me see how you do it, let me see how you shoot." So yeah, there's going to be mags from my gun also. So I ask again, WHY?

If you're going to use "they could put the wrong ammo in the wrong gun", don't. I usually load the mags the 1st day and I also only keep out the caliber we are currently shooting. I also watch them when they load a mag. I'm taking responsibility for their safety so I watch and double check what ever they do.

In reference to stance i said,

The angle of the camera does make it look like they're a little off balance but I do position them into the two popular stances and make sure they aren't off balance and let them decide which they like better. When it comes to stance, the thing I stress most is stand how you're comfortable and are not off balance. Also these women (and girl) that I'm teaching want to learn for self defense not marksman tournaments. They want to learn to protect themselves. Chances are when they do have to protect themselves, they will be shooting on the move which I work on with them later. Any other concerns about stance, see the video below.

[video=youtube_share;YXXJslPrVzk]http://youtu.be/YXXJslPrVzk[/video]

I personally don't believe stance means a whole lot (reference the video) but I still teach it and allow the person to decide how they want to comfortably position their body. I can hit the target standing on one foot, turned sideways, one handed as well as I can with both feet on the ground and with two hands on the gun. If you would of actually took the time read what I typed earlier, you would of seen where I pointed out that I do teach the two popular stances.

Where and how did I compare you to James Yeager? Please point that out. I would never insult James Yeager by comparing you to him. Especially when you don't take the time to read everything that I've typed then turn around and mix up the little that you did read.

 

[10-32]

You are seriously asking why they need to be leaning forward? You really don't see any advantage in teaching that? You think I am just forcing "my stance" on them? Really? And if they're leaning back when the gun recoils somehow THAT is going to help with their shooting skills? Really? Guess what? Teaching students to lean forward is STRAIGHT out of the NRA Instructor's course book. I guess we were teaching incorrect techniques to all of the students we taught for so many years. And you want to compare me to James Yeager? James Yeager?? Really? Thank you for that wonderful insult. Really.

Now to reply to your edited post.

I never said you were forcing "your stance" on them and I never said leaning back was going to help them. again what I said was,

The angle of the camera does make it look like they're a little off balance but I do position them into the two popular stances and make sure they aren't off balance and let them decide which they like better. When it comes to stance, the thing I stress most is stand how you're comfortable and are not off balance. Also these women (and girl) that I'm teaching want to learn for self defense not marksman tournaments. They want to learn to protect themselves. Chances are when they do have to protect themselves, they will be shooting on the move which I work on with them later. Any other concerns about stance, see the video below.

If you were actually there you would of seen they were standing straight.