"Can you meet ... at the statehouse on Oct 20"

[mrortega]

So a private school could ban the First Amendment? No Jews allowed on the campus for example? Members of certain racial groups could be excluded?

It should apply to all schools in the state. No school should be above the law.

No wonder you're held in awe by people on this site! You agree with me so much

 

[G_Stines]

So I am going to throw this out there.. but I am about to threadjack this hardcore to discuss what we would like to see come out of this.

I mean, how far are we going to take this and what measures are we going to take to get the ahem [STRIKE]libtards[/STRIKE], er.. less gun friendly minded people in Indiana Congress to go with this.


I mean, if you are going to carry on campus, you have to store it somewhere when you sleep, do we fight for the ability of a dorm residing student to possess in school quarters or only protect the rights of the commuters? That doesn't seem fair to me at all, and technically dorm dwellers are renting that "homespace." Do we negotiate and meet somewhere in the middle and say "it stays in the car.."? Because I think thats a load of crap.

Do we limit it to handguns?
Or just simply try to open the floodgates and allow all proper persons to possess any firearm on a college campus with no possibility of repercussions from the institution?

Because I am pretty sure that Congress will plug up the floodgate scenario in a heartbeat, and the schools are going to fight that one (not that they won't already be throwing punches when they catch wind of this) with every government funded penny they have.

We want give the responsible students the opportunity to do this safely, and to prove their responsibility without fear of the repercussions from the public institution.

We need to consider the possibility of a roommate, and should the (potential) roommate have the ability to opt out of LTCH holder roommate? If so, How do we differentiate between LTCH and NonLTCH peoples for the purpose of rooming? Put a LTCH # on the college application who then runs that through their Campus PD and verifies not only the LTCH # but also pairs them up with someone who checked that they "didn't care" or another LTCH holder?

Last thing I would want is John Q. LTCH to have a handgun, and his roommate JD No Good, to access it while he is gone, stick up a 7-11 and dump the gun and suddenly it becomes a crap storm and a half, and John Q, is now in a crap ton of trouble because he bought it from a gun shop and is at the end of the papertrail.. So, do we require some sort of secured (locked) container/slide lock/ect. when not on your person and on campus? Or do we leave that up to the judgement of each person, because if thats the case, it will only be a matter of time before that wormy apple presents itself..

I want to set this up for success, as this can be a huge step for protecting a constitutional right, so... Let me hear your thoughts. This is a huge group effort and these are things I have been mulling over since I first commented on this thread. I am sure there are many more things to consider.

Heck, why keep it to students? Why not offer the protection of the state of the 2nd Amendment it to the employees, Teachers, Janitors, RAs visitors of the public university, basically everyone provided they are LTCH holders?

 

[G_Stines]

So a private school could ban the First Amendment? No Jews allowed on the campus for example? Members of certain racial groups could be excluded?

Technically yes. Anymore than you could theoretically prevent someone who is Jewish from being allowed on your property. Technically that is discrimination, but discrimination isn't actually illegal in and of itself, that is protected under the 1st as well. Acting on it in a way which violates the rights of another makes it illegal. I am not saying its right, but have you ever been asked to vacate a premises because someone became aware that you had a firearm? Its the exact same thing, those are the rights of property ownership, ownership is 9/10s of the law.

 

[Roadie]

So a private school could ban the First Amendment? No Jews allowed on the campus for example? Members of certain racial groups could be excluded?

It should apply to all schools in the state. No school should be above the law.

Doesn't that already happen in some private schools that are aimed at certain ethnicities?

 

[CarmelHP]

So a private school could ban the First Amendment?

Why not? The public schools do. I've seen IU sic their cops on anti-abortion protestors faster than you can say Roe v. Wade. Anti-war protestors, well....let's say that's another story altogether.

 

[eldirector]

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion points, G-Stines!

My take on Dorms:
A student living in a dormitory or other school-owned housing has agreed to waive certain rights and abide by certain restrictions as part of their contract. For instance, the student has agreed waive some parts of their 4th Amendment rights, and allow the School to conduct searches of their assigned living space. The student has also agreed to not drink alcohol while on the property (in most cases) even if they are of legal age. Both parties agreed to that contract. I have NO issue with schools have reasonable restrictions in the contract, and students can accept or decline.

Other Housing:
I have real issues with School policies regarding housing that is completely outside of their control. Greek Residences (not located on School property), apartments near campus, etc.... Any school policy attempting to restrict property ownership or behavior here should be struck down.

My take on other restrictions:
I find it odd that Colleges/Universities can tell students, staff, and faculty what they can do outside of their time on campus. A "no firearms secured in your vehicle" policy effectively disarms these people from the time they leave their house until they return. For students that chose to live off campus, and outside of University policies, they are being FORCED to abide by the policy even while off-campus, on their own time. For faculty and staff, I find this even more absurd.

 

[Jordan_J]

I am currently back in school and will be for a few more years. I don't know if I can make it that day since I have class but you have my support if you need it.

 

[Jtgarner]

Okay, I'm going to touch on a little bit of what has been said here.
first of all, I see where eldirector is coming from with students waiving rights to live on campus, and that might be something that comes up, so i am glad to have that thought in my head. Although I hate the idea of disarming ANY student who wants to lawfully carry for self defense, it might be something they have to CHOOSE to give up because of where they CHOOSE to live.

As far as teachers and faculty go... let em all carry if they want to. The restrictions, at least here at IU prevent anyone associated with the university from carrying while on campus, however, if my father were to come visit me and carry on campus all that could happen is the IUPD ask him to leave. (ridiculous? yes!)

Now a basic argument for allowing this is that we just passed a law that forbids local governments from restricting the use/carry/sale of firearms on their property (if no court rooms are present). So why can places that get government funding, that are no more safe than everywhere else we can already carry, prohibit us from carrying. Heck, the way I first read that bill made me think that we could carry on campus if we wanted, but I feel like college campuses probably don't qualify as "Local government entities" even though they have state and federal funding and their own government style system set up.

If you are not a student at IU you can carry on to campus with the only penalty being that you would be asked to leave and be arrested for trespassing if you did not.
If you are a student at IU and you carry on campus you can be expelled with no refund for the money you have spent to take classes there.

The problem is, it is just as easy for a madman with a gun to walk onto campus as it is for you to buy a coke at McDonald's. There are no security gates or checkpoints to go through to get on campus. Since they can't guarantee that they can keep the bad guys with guns out, what do they do? They disarm all the "good guys." That makes sense.

 

[SideArmed]

I am not all that well versed on the subject, but I seem to remember that in Utah they allow carry on campus. And this is where I am not sure, but I think it is because the colleges get state funding, there for are a "subdivision" of the state. Would this make the preemption law at all useful in this situation? Since it is school policies that forbid the carry of firearms and not state law, I would think that they (state schools) are in violation of the preemption laws.

But I am not a lawyer and haven't researched it, but I will start looking into it now.

 

[Mr. Habib]

I am not all that well versed on the subject, but I seem to remember that in Utah they allow carry on campus. And this is where I am not sure, but I think it is because the colleges get state funding, there for are a "subdivision" of the state. Would this make the preemption law at all useful in this situation? Since it is school policies that forbid the carry of firearms and not state law, I would think that they (state schools) are in violation of the preemption laws.

But I am not a lawyer and haven't researched it, but I will start looking into it now.

The sate preemption law only applied to local governments. The state universities fall under state government and state funding. The new laws, unfortunately, don't apply.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Do the new changes in the law allow us to carry in the statehouse?

 

[Jtgarner]

I'm not sure... maybe someone will come along and answer that for us.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Liberty, be advised that the Indiana Statehouse contains the Indiana Supreme Court.

 

[Westside]

ok Kirk or B-O-R correct me if I am wrong but, State universities are not political subdivision and it is not "illegal" to care a weapon on campus just against the rules. Therefore non students can only be asked to leave then arrested for trespass if they refuse while Students can be expelled from school for violating the rules.

 

[Mr. Habib]

ok Kirk or B-O-R correct me if I am wrong but, State universities are not political subdivision and it is not "illegal" to care a weapon on campus just against the rules. Therefore non students can only be asked to leave then arrested for trespass if they refuse while Students can be expelled from school for violating the rules.

You're right, it's not illegal to carry there, but they are political subdivisions. The difference is that they are subdivisions of the state, not local, government so the recent changes to the law don't apply.. That is why we want to address this at the state level and have these rules removed.

 

[schapm]

So a private school could ban the First Amendment? No Jews allowed on the campus for example? Members of certain racial groups could be excluded?

It should apply to all schools in the state. No school should be above the law.

The school I went to is all male. Females can go to one of our peer institutions and get an education that is comparable. If a private school bans guns then students could attend another private school that doesn't.

 

[jgreiner]

ok Kirk or B-O-R correct me if I am wrong but, State universities are not political subdivision and it is not "illegal" to care a weapon on campus just against the rules. Therefore non students can only be asked to leave then arrested for trespass if they refuse while Students can be expelled from school for violating the rules.

Employees can be fired fro breaking that rule.

 

[Concerned Citizen]

I should be able to attend. Will there be a 'meet & greet' say, 15-30 minutes prior to walking in?

 

[Mr. Habib]

We should plan on that. that way we can all get lost together.

 

[Jtgarner]

haha yeah I am planning on meeting outside about 20 mins prior because another SCCC member (the state director) will also be attending.

And Westside, Mr. Habib answered your question correctly, and I also stated that problem on one of the previous pages. Seems kinda ridiculous that anyone can LEGALLY carry a gun onto campus, but if a student or faculty member does, they risk losing their job (assuming you consider being a student a job).