Carbine Clinic (Rifle 223) - May 28th - Bedford

[MinuteManMike]

OK, Google-Fu reveals I have used "Kentucky Windage" incorrectly. I thought it was correcting for badly-set sights by eye.

 

[MinuteManMike]

Deprime, this is an excellent video of how to run the course safely and effectively. In the video we can hear you sweeping the safety on and off and I especially like how when you transition to weak side that you can not see the second target you are shooting at, because you have stayed behind concealment enough that the camera on your ear pro isn't being exposed. Excellent run and thank you for being a safe student all day also.

Dang it. I don't think I put my safety back on between the moving target and the 1st barricade.

IIRC, I heard Slim say you don't have to put it back on between the two barricades if you kept your barrel up.

 

[MinuteManMike]

Why, if you were familiar with the process of zeroing, are any of your rifles running around without hard zeroes? Presumably everyone brought some form of fast response, door kicker carbine to this class. If that was indeed the case, why would that rifle, above all others, not have a zero?

In my case, I've never zeroed my AR because I didn't feel like I'd have a stable enough platform standing at an indoor range to get a really good zero. I can hit man-sized torso targets there decently enough at 25 yards. Living in the suburbs, if I ever NEED to shoot someone, it's going to be closer than 25 yards. And I don't know of any range around Indy where you can lie down to get a solid base and really know you're on.

But having done an Appleseed with a 10/22, I knew I could load, unload and make safe my weapon and handle my AR safely enough. Yes, I know how to zero a rifle and I understand the concepts well enough (except the afore-mentioned KY Windage). I was just confused as to what step we were to do when on the zeroing. I thought we were getting it dead on target at 25 before making the inch or so adjustment for the 50. No big deal. As I said before, the zero almost certainly didn't matter as much as my aim. It's a very minor complaint overall.

As for why / what I wanted? I wanted to spend the day shooting in a way I cannot at any range to which I have access. A day like Sunday advanced my thinking and shooting a lot more than I expected. It's made me think I need to look much more at IDPA, USPDA and 3-gun.

Thanks again to the RR folks.

 

[snowdrifter]

I skimmed through the original class description on the Revere's website and didn't see anywhere that a zeroed rifle was required, and in fact it mentions a couple times that zeroing will be one of the subjects covered. That being said, I made sure I went to the range before the event to rezero my rifle after fitting a different optic. Thanks to what I learned in prior Appleseed/Revere's events, I was confident with my zero, and never made any adjustments during the Carbine class.

A good place to start is to insist, as a culture, that folks go to a 25Y event before they go to a carbine class or to Atterbury.

I agree that attending an introductory level Revere/Appleseed class would be a good prerequisite. However I'm being a bit hypocritical, as I never went to a 25Y event before showing up to my first Appleseed at Atterbury. But the Field Marksmanship class covered zeroing much more extensively than the carbine class. The carbine class doesn't seem like the right event to spend a bunch of time setting up zeros, however a quick verification at the beginning would be fine.

 

[MinuteManMike]

Anyone else UN-able to fill out the official review on the RR site? It keeps telling me the date is a required field without letting me fill it in!

 

[gregkl]

Anyone else UN-able to fill out the official review on the RR site? It keeps telling me the date is a required field without letting me fill it in!

Same issue here. I even filled it out and tried to "correct errors" before submitting. Still wouldn't let me.

 

[Kpquinn9100]

Just to touch on a few key points. An ar15 style rifle should pretty much be on paper right out of the box unless the sights were seriously tampered with. The rifle I brought to this class has the most trigger time out of every rifle I own. I knew my zero was spot on with that being said. I was shooting some ammo that I've not shot before so I went to the range the Monday prior to the class to reconfirm zero with the new ammo. Key point here is being prepared for the class. I believe this is what huff is trying to relay in less words, and he's right. This may have been a "basic" class but it wasn't a "beginner" class. I was under the impression that rifle 125 was a prerequisite for this class. Then I checked back and it said suggested. I also believe it said you should have a good working knowledge of your firearm. I'm not faulting anyone or blaming them so I don't want this to get misconstrued but I believe there's a lot of tension that needs cut in this thread. I know it mentioned zeroing in the description and it might need to be changed to confirming zero so people aren't mislead. In the end of the day everyone qualified for their patch so we all worked through these issues. I believe instead of suggested the 125 class should be required. Not only to set up zeroes but also to become acclimated with how reveres riders events work. There's no reason for any tempers to be flaring up as long as we're all out there shooting safely and having a great time.

 

[MinuteManMike]

Did everyone actually qualify? I hope that's true. Cool news.

I don't think tempers are flaring here. It's a discussion forum, right? We're discussing.

And again:
No big deal. As I said before, the zero almost certainly didn't matter as much as my aim. It's a very minor complaint overall.

Speaking for me: more time to get my rifle dialed in would have helped MY peace of mind and made me focus. Me being off on my zero was a distraction. My impacts were probably down 2 inches and to the right two inches of where I aimed from 25 yards.

Using an online MOA calculator... that made me off by .....

Hmmmm.... now I don't know whether to be happier or sadder about my performance...

 

[ol' Huff]

I don't think any tempers are flaring, if you feel that is the case go back to my post and read it in the voice of a plea instead of a gripe.

"time to get my rifle dialed in would have helped MY peace of mind and made me focus. Me being off on my zero was a distraction." THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT STATEMENT. The only way to get the absolute most out of your training is to show up as absolutely prepared as you can, without ego and with a clear mind. Only through preparation is this possible. That said, the poster has been to a 25Y Appleseed and has seen the IMC lesson. That should give a person enough information to zero a rifle suitably for this carbine class. There is no reason happenstance or excuse that we should abide for a fighting rifle not having a zero close enough to booger a guy at 200 yards.

Snowdrifter I am intimately familiar with your performance at your initial Atterbury event. I want to tell you, with the warmth of a Christmas morning hug, that you made a mistake not attending a 25 yard shoot before you went. If you need a detailed breakdown of why I can tell you, but it won't change the fact that you would have gotten a tremendous amount more out of your experience if you had previously developed a better prone position and and more familiarity with the sling.

 

[Hop]

IndyMike, you are welcome to come to fcvcc.org as my guest sometime to shake out a zero on that AR. Looks like you are near my side of town.

 

[gopher]

Same issue here. I even filled it out and tried to "correct errors" before submitting. Still wouldn't let me.

Unfortunately, there was an issue with the encoding of the URL linking to the survey form. This has been an intermittent issue that I haven't yet been able to track down. You can fill out the survey by going here.

 

[gregkl]

Unfortunately, there was an issue with the encoding of the URL linking to the survey form. This has been an intermittent issue that I haven't yet been able to track down. You can fill out the survey by going here.

No worries. I figured someone would be along to help. Survey sent! Thanks!

 

[snowdrifter]

I am intimately familiar with your performance at your initial Atterbury event.

I'm flattered!

“No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example.”

 

[ol' Huff]

I'm flattered!

“No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example.”

Surviving that one probably should have warranted a patch of some kind.

 

[Birdblastingbrad]

Brad I understand what the course listing said, and I commiserate with the sensation of being without a hard zero. My question was more to set up the asking of the question "Why?" If a guy (or gal) was attending a rifle class, and had been to a previous RR 25Y event or an Appleseed or a CMP SAFS class, why did they not have a hard, known zero on that rifle beforehand? Why, if you were familiar with the process of zeroing, are any of your rifles running around without hard zeroes? Presumably everyone brought some form of fast response, door kicker carbine to this class. If that was indeed the case, why would that rifle, above all others, not have a zero?

Keep in mind this does not forgive the event director. If the listing said there would be time spent on zeroing and no time was spent on zeroing, that is on the event director and should be addressed. However, I think there are a few comments made in this thread that point to some deficiencies within the gun culture that we can and ought to correct and address. First, Indymike, in a very honest and frank report, stated that he did not understand where what his zero was, was unfamiliar enough with his rifle he did not fully understand the function of his rifle, and through his comments we can derive that he did not fully understand the trajectory of his rifle or Kentucky Windage. Caulfieldian noted that the first shots of the class, a tactical carbine class, should be to confirm zeros and everyone should be able to work it out. He then goes on to say that the reason so many people had trouble with the qualifier was because they had poor zeroes. I disagree. I think the reason they were unsuccessful is because they just don't know how to shoot yet. That leads me beyond the question of "Why?" to the question of "What?". What are we trying to do? What are you trying to accomplish if you don't know your manual of arms and this is your first time shooting outside of an indoor range? That is no criticism of Indymike, who I would again compliment for his frankness, but it is a clear sign of situational ignorance and failure of the gun culture. A shooter in that position should be surrounded by people who insist upon them going to a more fundamental class so they can figure out what they are doing before going to a carbine class. What are people training for? Are folks just doing it to fill time or are they trying to learn how to fight better with their rifles? If that is the case then they should ABSOLUTELY show up with a hard, known zero. Will the badguys give you a chance to zero? Are people training to take classes? Is it a way of socializing? What are we doing? What are our goals?

Where do we want to go as a culture? Why do we make the choices we do? What do we do to make ourselves better? Just about any martial art can be applied one of three ways, recreation, sport, and fighting. Each one of those things is enhanced by a critical attention to detail. We can only make the most of our learning is our preparation is done in critical detail. Whenever I hear talk of trouble with zeroes I know, through long experience, that the problem is actual trouble with preparation. So when I see folks comment on zeroes in a carbine class, my instinct is to wonder, "Why didn't we, as a culture, do more to prepare the people who were unprepared?" The answer always seems to be that it is okay to be unprepared. It's not. We can do more. A good place to start is to insist, as a culture, that folks go to a 25Y event before they go to a carbine class or to Atterbury. There are a lot of gunowners in the USA, but not many shooters. We can change that is we do more as a culture to insist on making better use of our training opportunities.

Huff, thanks for taking the time to reply as in-depth as you did. It really shows the passion that you possess for this program. I hope that this conversation isn't taken as criticism, but rather as feedback.

I'd like to follow up to a few points you made. My rifle was in fact zeroed at 100 yards. Not much of a problem from anywhere out to 200 yards. Had it said in the course description "have your carbine zeroed at 50 yards", then I suppose that I would have felt more prepared. Did some folks show up with rifles that had not been zeroed? Yes. As an old man once told me, "lack of preparation By you doesn't constitute an emergency for me"! But being unprepared and uninformed are two different things. You refer back to being prepared several times. I agree. People should be prepared, but in order to be prepared, there needs to be guidance and instruction as to what to be prepared for! If the course was designed to be a "jump right in" type of course, then tell folks "have your carbine zeroed at 50 yards, have four magazines loaded and ready, be comfortable shooting from both strong side and weak side, and know how to safely and effectively clear any malfunctions". That being said, the course description is pretty vague as far as what preparations should be done prior to the start. I wouldn't dream of owning nor using a rifle that wasn't zeroed. I know how to clear malfunctions.

For a few years, I worked as an upland hunting guide in South Dakota. You wouldn't believe the number of people who would show up 1000 miles from home with a shotgun that they're not even sure of how it functions, new boots, and the wrong clothing! As a society, we are in general, unprepared! I think a lot of folks show up to things like this expecting to be "taught", rather than to be refined. Slim, TJ, Rayne, yourself, as well as many of the other instructors I've met are all "prepared" for what is coming in these courses, but you all have more shooting experience than the average Joe/Jane that shows up to take a course. Personally, I feel that when I was guiding a client, I was "prepared " to deal with whatever comes my way. First aid kit, extra ammo in the truck, extra guns, change of clothes, electrolytes for me and the dog, spare batteries, flashlight, etc. The thing about it is that after the first few hunts, I had a checklist that I gave everyone I took, that listed what to bring, to be completely sure of how your gun worked, to make a trip to a local skeet range before coming out, etc. The fact is, I STILL had people show up without ever having shot their grandpas Browning A5! Some people will always assume they can get by! I don't care whether you're teaching a carbine class, guiding a hunt, or whatever! It's something that is human nature. The point is that in order to be prepared, people must know what to be prepared for!

All that said, my (long winded) point is that if something is expected, then it should be outlined up front. Otherwise, people can simply assume it will be covered as needed.

 

[TJ Kackowski]

This thread has produced some of the best feedback I've ever read! Thank you to all who've participated, and to those who have yet to chime in.

As the Revere's Riders program grows, this sort of communication will only help to make the events stronger and more efficient.

Thank you again.

That's all for the moment.

 

[ol' Huff]

Huff, thanks for taking the time to reply as in-depth as you did. It really shows the passion that you possess for this program. I hope that this conversation isn't taken as criticism, but rather as feedback.

Its not criticism. I won't deliver it that way or take it that way. A couple of the mdoerators here encourage me to post more, despite my curmudgeonly views on this and other gun forums. I wouldn't waste my time criticizing people.

I'd like to follow up to a few points you made. My rifle was in fact zeroed at 100 yards. Not much of a problem from anywhere out to 200 yards. Had it said in the course description "have your carbine zeroed at 50 yards", then I suppose that I would have felt more prepared. Did some folks show up with rifles that had not been zeroed? Yes. As an old man once told me, "lack of preparation By you doesn't constitute an emergency for me"! But being unprepared and uninformed are two different things. You refer back to being prepared several times. I agree. People should be prepared, but in order to be prepared, there needs to be guidance and instruction as to what to be prepared for!

You're absolutely right. Ignorance is forgiveable.

If the course was designed to be a "jump right in" type of course, then tell folks "have your carbine zeroed at 50 yards, have four magazines loaded and ready, be comfortable shooting from both strong side and weak side, and know how to safely and effectively clear any malfunctions". That being said, the course description is pretty vague as far as what preparations should be done prior to the start. Excellent points that ought to be addressed by the event director. It doesn't, in my eyes, forgive not having a known zero on a fighting rifle. The reason I would harp on that is because I think it points to a cultural deficiency. As gun owners we should be spending far less time accumulating gear and much more time structuring and maintaining our training. What are our goals? What are the best ways to achieve them? Who should I ask? Those are the questions we want people to ask when they consider their shooting development and we, as a culture, should be better and more consistent at delivering them. The trainers can fail on their side, too.

I wouldn't dream of owning nor using a rifle that wasn't zeroed. I know how to clear malfunctions. Unfortunately I have piles of unzeroed rifles. My stuff gets borrowed a lot and it always comes back looking like a myopic octopuss used it BUT there is always a zero on the house gun and truck gun.

For a few years, I worked as an upland hunting guide in South Dakota. (okay, you have my rapt attention) You wouldn't believe the number of people who would show up 1000 miles from home with a shotgun that they're not even sure of how it functions, new boots (ouch), and the wrong clothing (why won't people just buy more wool?)! Well, you might be surprised. Between Appleseed, RR, 4-H and the Bedford Contingent I've probably conducted somewhere north of 350 classes and clinics and 6,000 ot instructing experience and I can say, with unerring authority in this case, that people will show up unprepared to almost every class, even a class for instructors.

As a society, we are in general, unprepared! I think a lot of folks show up to things like this expecting to be "taught", rather than to be refined. Slim, TJ, Rayne, yourself, as well as many of the other instructors I've met are all "prepared" for what is coming in these courses, but you all have more shooting experience than the average Joe/Jane that shows up to take a course. ( that is a terrible shame) Personally, I feel that when I was guiding a client, I was "prepared " to deal with whatever comes my way. First aid kit, extra ammo in the truck, extra guns, change of clothes, electrolytes for me and the dog, spare batteries, flashlight, etc. The thing about it is that after the first few hunts, I had a checklist that I gave everyone I took, that listed what to bring, to be completely sure of how your gun worked, to make a trip to a local skeet range before coming out, etc. The fact is, I STILL had people show up without ever having shot their grandpas Browning A5! We've had the same experience. No matter what the class list contains people will attempt to outsmart themselves. That is why we started encouraging less stuff at Atterbury. Folks were dying carrying crap they would never use. At one of the last events there an instructor had folks sort out what they used and didnt use, on average the unused pile was twice as big. Some people will always assume they can get by! I don't care whether you're teaching a carbine class, guiding a hunt, or whatever! It's something that is human nature. The point is that in order to be prepared, people must know what to be prepared for!

Are we doing enough to prepare people as a culture? One of the things we see pretty consistently at the Atterbury and Carbine shoots are people that refuse to attend a 25Y event first or insist that their experience precludes such a thing (its for kids anyway, right?). It is actually problematic for instructors and students. Classes drag on when they are only as fast as the slowest person. At the Carbine classes, where the threshold for marksmanship is lower but the threshold for manipulation is higher, we still see it. At Atterbury, the threshold for marksmanship is very high and we see huge difference. Not as much time can be given to coaching position and process and first timer scores across the course sit between 35 and 55 percent, typically. Prior attendee scores come in between 65 and 85%. Its noticeable. I wonder if, as a culture, we do enough to espouse a common sense approach. You have to dig the hole, drive the grade stakes, pour the footer, and set the stones to build a foundation. The digging and the driving is not glamorous but its necessary. Before we can even frame it up there is a pile of work to do. Do we do enough to tell ourselves and others to slow down, go to the beginning, build it up properly? Is it responsible of us, as a culture, to not put ore effort into that? For a long time the instructor cadre debated the concept of pre-required courses. Lots of schools do that. We haven't for the most part. There was a time when I thought the idea of prereqs was unnecessary but the older I get and more crotchety I get the more I am certain it would be wise.

All that said, my (long winded) point is that if something is expected, then it should be outlined up front. Otherwise, people can simply assume it will be covered as needed.

There is a cost to that longwindedness I am afraid. As a new hunter I require the GPS coordinates for all South Dakota honey holes for turkey, mulies, and elk in my PM inbox before the close of business today.

 

[Birdblastingbrad]

haha! Only thing I can help with is ditch chickens (aka Pheasants)

 

[MinuteManMike]

Unfortunately, there was an issue with the encoding of the URL linking to the survey form. This has been an intermittent issue that I haven't yet been able to track down. You can fill out the survey by going here.

Survey submitted. Thanks.

 

[MinuteManMike]

IndyMike, you are welcome to come to fcvcc.org as my guest sometime to shake out a zero on that AR. Looks like you are near my side of town.

That's a kind offer and it's much appreciated. I might just have to get in touch.