Church security, is everyone an expert?

[bwframe]

There are quite a variety of "expert" trainers out there. Just ask them, they'll tell you.

I think this well publicized church shooting will spark a new awareness. A lot of folks will seek further training and will learn from this.

A lot of folks will be further educated that aren't necessarily part of church security teams also. Whether it's your average sole that carries every day, Sunday or not, to church administration keeping a better eye open for people out of place.

 

[Vigilant]

This is is so on the money. Shooting and Security are two different things. Until the citizen ponies up to the money, education and interaction with each other congregation of any kind are not secure from the madman.

I really didn’t think we’d ever agree on anything, but I’m happy it was this.

 

[Vigilant]

There are quite a variety of "expert" trainers out there. Just ask them, they'll tell you.

I think this well publicized church shooting will spark a new awareness. A lot of folks will seek further training and will learn from this.

A lot of folks will be further educated that aren't necessarily part of church security teams also. Whether it's your average sole that carries every day, Sunday or not, to church administration keeping a better eye open for people out of place.

Ok, this too.

 

[Sylvain]

Sylvain, I bought the trauma kits and donated them. The local Red Cross provided free basic training and a local certified medic donated the rest of the training. I just bought a batch of Persys kits from Botach (Don't boo them or me...they have been good to us since I buy this stuff out of my pocket) .

That's great.
I'm not familiar with their kits.

 

[bwframe]

Mr Wilson give details of how his crew trained...

[video=youtube;kciJclao2TM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciJclao2TM[/video]

 

[jedi]

Dont go to church. Problem solved.
Or better yet put a school on said church property and now you have a GFZ. Those always work.

 

[ditcherman]

Mr Wilson give details of how his crew trained...

[video=youtube;kciJclao2TM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kciJclao2TM[/video]

Thanks for posting that, fascinating.
I wonder if he had it to do over again if he would vet or search the guy as he came in? I mean, a fake beard is over the top if there's not a Easter play going on.

 

[KokomoDave]

That's great.
I'm not familiar with their kits.

Israeli typical quality with clotting agent infused. I am not a doctor but Ken Jeong is and we are both Korean. Well, I'm 1/2 hard headed and the other 1/2 is a peckerwood.

 

[Coach]

A church security team cannot really be over trained, but I do not think it needs to be over complicated. This latest Texas situation was ended with one well placed shot. See the situation coming, present your handgun, and make a well placed shot. Many churches are small enough that a guard or two will suffice. If it is a large church more sophistication may be needed but ultra trained ninjas are not necessary.

 

[INgunowner]

A security team cannot really be over trained...
...ultra trained ninjas are not necessary.

I disagree, the number of moving parts compounds the statistical probability of component failure.

The inconsistency in training, mindset, and equipment would be prime suspects for the criminal lack of proficiency and cohesion in the circus that is/will be church"security."

The 2A provides you with the Freedom to succeed and the Liberty to fail.

 

[SmileDocHill]

Are any of the security people in a church forming their own small group? I would think if the church is big enough to have small groups then it would be a good fit to form one for security minded folks. I'm just curious if any of the trainers incorporate that into their structure, assuming it fits the size/dynamic of the church.
The small group dynamic I'm familiar with seems like it would fit great with the need for a constant state of training, be it range time or just discussing mindset, tactics, roles, strategy. You could either meet 1x/week like typical (prob. more time than needed) and have some of each or a portion of meeting be more typical bible study. OR have it be a secondary small group that meets less often for security only roles and you would just join another one for the other roles of small group.

 

[Selfpreservation]

So of course with the Texas shooting so much in the news I have seen all kinds of information out on church security. Some is from sources who were known to me to provide it previously (like Strategos), others I had no idea were involved in it

So here is my question, is a firearms instructor, even if he is a well known one, automatically an expert on church security?

In my opinion, no. Firearms training is only one piece of church security, and not even one all churches will agree to.

I have worked with churches who take security & training very seriously. They have multiple armed team members, comms, cameras, trauma first aid kits, sop's, emergency & ecav plans, day care security plans for regular services and emergencies, etc. They also train monthly in tactics, firearms, first aid, empty hand tactics, use of force law, and on and on.
I have also worked with others who only want a presentation to the congregation on "run,hide, fight" concepts. Most tend to fall somewhere in between.

 

[Coach]

I disagree, the number of moving parts compounds the statistical probability of component failure.

The inconsistency in training, mindset, and equipment would be prime suspects for the criminal lack of proficiency and cohesion in the circus that is/will be church"security."

The 2A provides you with the Freedom to succeed and the Liberty to fail.

The number of moving parts to carrying in public and performing as a church security team in most churches is not really very different. The combat triad of mindset, gun handling and marksmanship will get the job done. Church volunteers can be reached on these things because they are willing there are plenty of sheepdog's naturally in a congregation because it is full of mothers and fathers and their natural role of protector is just going to be sharpened and honed.

A security team does not need to have the same gear.

It is easier to find folks who can put a well placed shot on target than it is to find a team of Jason Bourne to go hand to hand. It is far easier to make someone proficient at shooting a pistol than it is to make them a grappler. Even if age and lack of strength and conditioning is not an issue, but it is an issue a big one.

Failure is possible not matter what we are talking about in life. I don't spend time worrying about what can go wrong. I spend my time and energy trying to make things come out right. I love competing and coaching against people who are worried about what can go wrong. A jackass with a shotgun starts shooting during communion then lets get him shot. Oh wait we have a great example of that anyway. 71 year old man of faith does what needs to be done and has the ability to do it. Ninja fighting and choke holds he may not have been as successful.

PS: I disagree with the context in which you use liberty. Liberty is a set of rights or privileges such as the freedom of speech, right to privacy, a speedy public trial. Failure and fear do not beling on such a list.

 

[cedartop]

The number of moving parts to carrying in public and performing as a church security team in most churches is not really very different. The combat triad of mindset, gun handling and marksmanship will get the job done. Church volunteers can be reached on these things because they are willing there are plenty of sheepdog's naturally in a congregation because it is full of mothers and fathers and their natural role of protector is just going to be sharpened and honed.

A security team does not need to have the same gear.

It is easier to find folks who can put a well placed shot on target than it is to find a team of Jason Bourne to go hand to hand. It is far easier to make someone proficient at shooting a pistol than it is to make them a grappler. Even if age and lack of strength and conditioning is not an issue, but it is an issue a big one.

Failure is possible not matter what we are talking about in life. I don't spend time worrying about what can go wrong. I spend my time and energy trying to make things come out right. I love competing and coaching against people who are worried about what can go wrong. A jackass with a shotgun starts shooting during communion then lets get him shot. Oh wait we have a great example of that anyway. 71 year old man of faith does what needs to be done and has the ability to do it. Ninja fighting and choke holds he may not have been as successful.

PS: I disagree with the context in which you use liberty. Liberty is a set of rights or privileges such as the freedom of speech, right to privacy, a speedy public trial. Failure and fear do not beling on such a list.

As you already know I disagree. You are playing the hammer and nails game. A lot of churches want security but maybe not an armed team. Or maybe they will allow an armed team but there just aren't that many qualified members in the congregation. As usual shooting someone should be the last resort and there may be a bunch of steps before that. There are going to be exponentially more good things a security team can do in a church besides employing lethal force. I am not arguing against arming people in church, I am just saying there is a lot more to it than that.

Quit bullheading your way through everything.

 

[bwframe]

Where does (OMG) profiling fit into this?

 

[cedartop]

Where does (OMG) profiling fit into this?

That will vary but by and large it will play a big role. In the churches I am involved with in our area you know the people or you know the type of people. If someone comes in that does not match that profile it is only common sense to take notice. Those people get special attention and that is a good thing. If they are harmless it is good because you may be able to help someone, if they have illl intent you will hopefully be able to pick up on it sooner. This isn't going to be as easy at some churches where their attendees run the gamut of types. Of course being left of bang as it were will still factor in.

 

[Coach]

As you already know I disagree. You are playing the hammer and nails game. A lot of churches want security but maybe not an armed team. Or maybe they will allow an armed team but there just aren't that many qualified members in the congregation. As usual shooting someone should be the last resort and there may be a bunch of steps before that. There are going to be exponentially more good things a security team can do in a church besides employing lethal force. I am not arguing against arming people in church, I am just saying there is a lot more to it than that.

Quit bullheading your way through everything.

Are the trees blocking your view of the forest?

 

[cedartop]

Are the trees blocking your view of the forest?

Sometimes, but not in this case I don't think

 

[Vigilant]

Are the trees blocking your view of the forest?

Not every church security issue needs a firearm, if that’s all the training you recommend you’re setting them up for failure.

 

[Coach]

Not every church security issue needs a firearm, if that’s all the training you recommend you’re setting them up for failure.

I agree and that is not what I am saying at all. There is no one place to go get all of the training. I have done training with several church groups and I have been on a church security team. For the firearms aspect trainers should stay in their lane. The security team does not need to be green berets in order to be successful and prepared. If the team can deal with the worst case scenario they can certainly deal with many other less difficult scenarios.