Church security, is everyone an expert?

[Vigilant]

I agree and that is not what I am saying at all. There is no one place to go get all of the training. I have done training with several church groups and I have been on a church security team. For the firearms aspect trainers should stay in their lane. The security team does not need to be green berets in order to be successful and prepared. If the team can deal with the worst case scenario they can certainly deal with many other less difficult scenarios.

I guess I misunderstood.

 

[Coach]

I guess I misunderstood.

I think I am missing something as well. I have Cedartops short list of concerns that he texted me. I need to find the time and go back to square one on this and see what the concerns are. Maybe I can find the time tomorrow.

 

[DRob]

Through all the talk of training and security teams, it seems to me that some may be of the mindset that individual training is paramount. While it is certainly of great value, training as a unit is vastly more valuable in my opinion. Individual team members must know the skills of the others and what to expect them to do. That's why it's called a team. There are a lot of folks who carry a gun and self-identify as sheepdogs. I am not convinced without further evidence.

 

[Vigilant]

Through all the talk of training and security teams, it seems to me that some may be of the mindset that individual training is paramount. While it is certainly of great value, training as a unit is vastly more valuable in my opinion. Individual team members must know the skills of the others and what to expect them to do. That's why it's called a team. There are a lot of folks who carry a gun and self-identify as sheepdogs. I am not convinced without further evidence.

I am of the team training school myself. Four or five individuals with guns does not a security team make.

 

[Coach]

Through all the talk of training and security teams, it seems to me that some may be of the mindset that individual training is paramount. While it is certainly of great value, training as a unit is vastly more valuable in my opinion. Individual team members must know the skills of the others and what to expect them to do. That's why it's called a team. There are a lot of folks who carry a gun and self-identify as sheepdogs. I am not convinced without further evidence.

I think you are adding some important points to the conversation. I see it a little differently but I don't know who is right or wrong about it. If everyone is trained and prepared to protect their family properly it should be easy to take such a group and build them into a team with a little bit of coordination, scheduling and leadership from the point man of the group. Anything a church security person should know how to do a mother or father should know how to do. Lots of times a firearm is not needing in deal with situations but sometimes it is.

I do agree that the team should know everyone's abilities and therefore use the strength of the team well. The wolf is the strength of the pack and the pack is the strength of the wolf.

 

[jkdbjj]

At the end of the day the worst case scenario is the one that should be trained for---and that worst case happened last week in Texas when a murderer with a shotgun and the intent to keep using it, used it on good folks in a place of worship. Best result for that worst case is having a guy with a gun that can take 1 shot and put it in the head of the murderer...ending it. I believe the study should be less about what makes up a perfect security team and more about how the good guy put himself in a position to win against evil---and save lives doing it: Years and years and years of preparation. My question to myself is simple: Am I doing enough, daily, to be able to do that when called upon?

 

[bwframe]

Not picking on the poor guy that was shot first in the church. However, had he handled himself differerently, how much could have changed in that outcome?

 

[ditcherman]

Are any of the security people in a church forming their own small group? I would think if the church is big enough to have small groups then it would be a good fit to form one for security minded folks. I'm just curious if any of the trainers incorporate that into their structure, assuming it fits the size/dynamic of the church.
The small group dynamic I'm familiar with seems like it would fit great with the need for a constant state of training, be it range time or just discussing mindset, tactics, roles, strategy. You could either meet 1x/week like typical (prob. more time than needed) and have some of each or a portion of meeting be more typical bible study. OR have it be a secondary small group that meets less often for security only roles and you would just join another one for the other roles of small group.

We are just getting started back with small groups after a few years hiatus. This sounds like good idea.
I would guess that unless your trainer is intimately involved in your church (like Jack "One Shot" from Texas) he's not going to be too involved in your small group. My gut says most are there to help, but also for the pay and move on.
I am also wondering about training or just general sharing of info (a bigger small group) across churches/groups? Wondering if there are mentoring and learning opportunities for us as a general community? At the least, a professional trainer could market himself to a community and then churches that were interested in going deeper could follow up in more detail/personalized training. We are currently looking into whether Westfield has a policy, program, or even interest in helping us develop beyond the 'few guys who are sheepdogs' model.

 

[ditcherman]

Not picking on the poor guy that was shot first in the church. However, had he handled himself differerently, how much could have changed in that outcome?

Like you, not wanting to pick or armchair QB, but if guy comes in with a fake beard he's going to get questioned.
In the video Jack kind of goes to bat for him (the deceased parishioner bw mentions above) and seems to say he was drawing at the same time or something. Anyone (everyone else I have heard) else talking about it says he (the parishioner) was slow to draw and gave a command to drop it or something. We may never know.
The really bad dudes probably won't come in with a fake beard though.

 

[Coach]

Like you, not wanting to pick or armchair QB, but if guy comes in with a fake beard he's going to get questioned.
In the video Jack kind of goes to bat for him and seems to say he was drawing at the same time or something. Anyone else talking about it says he was slow to draw and gave a command to drop it or something. We may never know.
The really bad dudes probably won't come in with a fake beard though.

It happened that way in Texas. I dont understand you last statement.

 

[KokomoDave]

I'm no expert. I just love my church family and we are doing what we can short of metal detectors because we want people to come freely worship not run a gauntlet of sorts. The only thing I am good at is eating Nabisco vanilla wafers and I'm sure there are others better than me at that too.

 

[KokomoDave]

Oh, another thing. The pastor and youth pastor are the only ones being paid by the deacons / church board.
We volunteer and seek training from others that will volunteer also as we are around 100 worshippers per main service. About 1/3 of that for bible study before the main message.

 

[mrortega]

Organizing a security team would be a huge ordeal. At my age (73) and wife in a wheelchair my objective is to protect the two of us. I'm not going to jump up and charge a shooter. But if someone doing harm is going up and down each aisle shooting I just want to be able to engage him at short range when he gets to our pew.

 

[ditcherman]

It happened that way in Texas. I dont understand you last statement.

I was thinking in the context of bw's question about how it might be handled differently, and how it is unlikely to go down the same way again, and how the fake beard in Mr. Wilson's explanation just seemed so strange, that the odds of someone intent on evil coming in with a beard moving around on their face seem very small. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, editing the post for some clarity just in case it matters someday.

 

[bwframe]

What I was trying to get at, about the first guy shot, was that if he had known/realized that drawing his weapon was not a good option while looking at a leveled shotgun? If he had not drawn, how could the whole situation have been different?

At least for (stubborn) me anyway, it took a couple of solid FOF classes to get through my head that I could not outdraw a leveled weapon. Learning that my gun was not the answer to solve all problems took seeing that happen in FOF training a few times.

 

[Vigilant]

What I was trying to get at, about the first guy shot, was that if he had known/realized that drawing his weapon was not a good option while looking at a leveled shotgun? If he had not drawn, how could the whole situation have been different?

At least for (stubborn) me anyway, it took a couple of solid FOF classes to get through my head that I could not outdraw a leveled weapon. Learning that my gun was not the answer to solve all problems took seeing that happen in FOF training a few times.

A firearm drawn correctly and we’d have a different “hero”. Surreptitious drawstrokes should be practiced by all serious about self defense. Many here are afraid of themselves and their tools, and cringe at appendix carry, but appendix carry, and a proper drawstroke would have greatly changed the outcome for at least one man. 3 seconds into the dead mans draw is when he was killed. That leaves about 1.5 seconds from draw to first round for an average shooter.

 

[ECS686]

What I was trying to get at, about the first guy shot, was that if he had known/realized that drawing his weapon was not a good option while looking at a leveled shotgun? If he had not drawn, how could the whole situation have been different?[

This is in no way meaning to sound critical of the deceased. but as someone that is a certified Firearms and UOF instructor just my observations. Lots of situations go south and you just roll with it but. In a perfect scenario here the person closest to the mad man could have closed the distance getting the muzzle down (if it goes off into the floor would be better than nothing) While the others reacted and came to the aid to restrain the suspect. Speed, Surprise and Violence of action do not only apply to SWAT and building entries or warrants

HOWEVER, That obviously is an advanced skill and and unless you have extensive training with hands on Experience, Can you think as fast as you can act on your feet? If that doesn't apply then they are probably not as prepaird. But we all do what we can do. Also the older you get conditioning and stamina varies which could effect your response or reaction.

The main issue is a lot of people train for that deadly force encounter with a firearm but not as many train or are prepared for plan B, C or D where it's still deadly force but obviously using a firearm is impractical that split second.

 

[Thor]

Anyone armed and able in any situation is security at that time. Be security.

 

[bwframe]

Did the first guy shot, with his slow telegraphed draw, prompt the shotgunner into shooting?

 

[Vigilant]

Anyone armed and able in any situation is security at that time. Be security.

Id actually advocate against that slightly if there were an active church security team. Personally I don’t want to get smoked by one of them thinking I may be a secondary shooter? Until it came down to me or mine in that specific situation, I would cover my family and wait/attempt egress.