Dan Wesson valor 10mm ss galling up during break in

[EmMiller]

So, is it uncouth to post email transcripts on public forums without consent of the other party?

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[samspartan]

Thanks for the reply also. I was getting totally different vibe from the Dan Wesson 1911 forum. They were like ,what are you complaining about?
I hadn't heard much bad about dw. Should've done more research. Would've spent extra cash for a NH or WC.

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[Tyler-The-Piker]

Welcome to INGO, Em!

Let me be frank here...I imagine a DW toting woman to kinda be a b****s...please stick around.


(FWIW, Ive seen numerous folks here post email correspondence between they and a company's customer service. I don't find that you're doing anything maliciously jyst informatively.

 

[Expat]

So, is it uncouth to post email transcripts on public forums without consent of the other party?

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I don't think so. If they said something to you, they should be happy to stand behind it.

Thanks for the reply also. I was getting totally different vibe from the Dan Wesson 1911 forum. They were like ,what are you complaining about?
I hadn't heard much bad about dw. Should've done more research. Would've spent extra cash for a NH or WC.

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Read back through that DW forum. Every time someone makes any comment that could be negative, the torches and pitchforks come out. The fanboys will not allow any negative comments over there, deserved or not.

 

[churchmouse]

It is "miss" to you, sir mouse.

Of course I would not expect one to know that on a forum.. Haha!

You better be careful in these modern days of liberal gender craziness... Its tough out there..

And thank you mouse, I have read and appreciated many of your posts on this forum while lurking.



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I am humbled at your gracious response. and welcome.

 

[churchmouse]

I don't think so. If they said something to you, they should be happy to stand behind it.


Read back through that DW forum. Every time someone makes any comment that could be negative, the torches and pitchforks come out. The fanboys will not allow any negative comments over there, deserved or not.

Must be akin to the G**** Forum.....

 

[EmMiller]

Welcome to INGO, Em!

Let me be frank here...I imagine a DW toting woman to kinda be a b****s...please stick around.


(FWIW, Ive seen numerous folks here post email correspondence between they and a company's customer service. I don't find that you're doing anything maliciously jyst informatively.

The bruin being a 6.3" barrel long slide, it wasn't going to be a carry pistol.. But I do carry a 1911 most days, or a Scorpion 938.

As for a b*****.... naturally.

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[EmMiller]

So maybe ill post select sections of the emails that are most relevant. I probably have 20 or 25 emails going back and forth, most of it just the normal nonsense.

But I am under the same impression as you guys, if they are willing to email it to me as official word from the company about warranty issues, then they should have no problem with that information being shared.

First thing I thought when I read the response after I got it back with the scratches and sloppy fit was something like " man... I wonder if they would say these things publicly"

I seriously doubt it. I'll post some edited down/redacted versions when I have a minute.

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[EmMiller]

I don't have a copy of original complaint, it was thru the DW warranty message service thing on the website.
Here are the original responses.
Hello,How many rounds have been put through it?What type and amount of lubrication is being applied? Sincerely,

The gun has about 100 rounds through it. But with the projectile being set back into the casing while chambering can severely increase chamber pressures. That is my main concern. The gun has never "malfunctioned" and is not really very tightly fit to begin with compared to my other DW's. Lubrication is the grease DW supplied in the rails and Wilson oil on the secondary lube points.
The cosmetic issues are not what I would expect from a*$2,000*pistol, or from DW in general in my past experiences.*
I will have to send the pictures in two emails, only allows me 6 total per message.
Pic 1and 2 show the front sight being misaligned. With a sight this long, it's visible with the naked eye, and while sighting down and lining the sights up.
Pic 3 shows a ding that is under the duty finish
Pic 4, 5, and 6 show swirls under the duty finish in the ball milled area. Plainly visible with naked eye, both sides.
Pictures 7 to 10 are in the next emailThanks
--
Hello,
The duty finish coloration may in deed wear but the duty finish itself is not affected, only the coloration, its hardness value will not degrade from holstering.
Regardless, we will replace your bruin with a new one that I will build and final inspect personally.
Please follow the link below. Enter your information there and click submit.
We will then be able to email you a FedEx return label.



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[EmMiller]

I meant to respond to the OP about the lube issues they are claiming..

DW has supplied packets of grease in my guns blow molded cases for the rails. IIRC it was "Lucas extreme grease"

Thought that was funny, since they claim you shouldn't have used grease..

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[EmMiller]

These are the original photos I sent Dw of the pistol when I first bought it.

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[EmMiller]

Good morning,
With different people working on the pistols, the end result can and usually does vary from pistol to pistol,
When they pass final Q.C. then they are deemed within the acceptable production standards.
I will show our VP the pics you sent and let you know what the verdict is.
The coloration of the duty finish can wear quickly but the .001” deep hardening of the stainless is absolutely intact…it takes a diamond file to get through the duty finish, the coloration of it … any holster will wear.** The process is similar to anodizing for aluminum but for stainless steel.
--
Hello E,
I brought your Bruin to our final quality control supervisor for inspection, the only flaw reported to me that is outside of production specifications is the ding on the lower bevel of the slides right side, the misaligned front sight also falls under flawed installation….cosmetically there is nothing on this pistol aside from the aforementioned that warrants replacement….the mechanical “issue” has been addressed to correctly feed factory ammunition.
I can clean up the slides lower edge ding and re-duty finish it for you…the other concerns you had fall within our Q.C. production standards.
Sincerely,
--

Thanks Endre
So which issues are not being corrected? The bevel on the left side top of the slide? First picture.
And the deep scratching in the ball milling on both sides of the slide in front of the dust cover? second and third pictures.
The pistol never malfunctioned or miss-fed ammunition, it causing significant bullet setback. Chambering and unchambering live rounds results in bullets that are setback into the case. This issue happened with every brand of ammunition I loaded in the pistol. As I'm sure you know, 10mm 1911s commonly have this issue and great care must be taken when building 10mm 1911 pistols to avoid bullet setback problems. Firing full pressure 10mm loads in a pistol that's setting back bullets can severely increase chamber pressures to a dangerous level.
Please explain which issues are not being addressed. It seems I would have been much better served by buying a DW factory blem bruin. I have handled a number of them, and they were very small imperfections, nowhere near what this pistol shows. At --REDACTED--where I ordered and recieved the pistol, we compared this pistol with a .45acp all black Bruin, and the "blem" was beautiful, no obvious flaws. It was considerably cheaper than the*$2,000.00*I paid for a new non-blem pistol.
I was advised by my local gun shop, whom ordered the pistol for me, to contact DW warranty department when it arrived. --REDACTED-- He has very good words for DW. But everyone present in the shop agreed the pistol was a very poor example of DW workmanship. I personally have been buying DW 1911s since my first classic commander bobtail in 2006, and I have never had a single flaw or issue with any of them, until this pistol. If these issues are now "acceptable" or "within specification" then I don't really know what to say. A*$600*Rock Island 1911 would not have one of these issues, let alone all of them. And I know from experience they will fix any and all defects if one slips by QC.
In my opinion, and everyone who has handled the pistol, the frame appears perfect, and the slide has a bunch of very obvious issues.
So I'm not exactly clear on which issues your supervisor is saying are acceptable. Can you detail which issues you are referring to exactly?Thank you for your time and help, I appreciate it.





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[EmMiller]

The mechanical aspects will be taken care of (bullet set back, which is nothing new to auto-loaders)
This pistol was not blemed because it met QC standards, these production pistols a batch produced and do vary.
Cosmetically the only QC imperfection the QC supervisor remarked on is the ding on the lower bevel of the slide.
Sincerely,

--
I am currently having the machine shop cut a new slide for your bruin…it may take another 4-6 weeks till it is completed with the duty finish but I like to believe you will be happier with the end result.
Sincerely,

Hello E,

*

The work on Your Bruin has been completed,
The new slide is tight and aesthetically correct….the only thing I would do to complete this pistols performance to ensure trouble free operation is to install a WOLFF 24# recoil spring, I do not have any available here or I would have put one in.
Sincerely,

Hello E,
I added the updated address you provided to your pistols paperwork,
The factory recoil spring in the pistol weighs 16.58#,* the correct from the factory weight should be 22# ….the 5.42# deviation in weight will produce intermittent failures to feed off the slide stop.
Sincerely,

***





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[EmMiller]

First email directly to Keith, redacted, was VERY long email.

Hello keith, --REDACTED--
.....i went back and forth through email, and a new slide was finally offered to fix the pistol. Fair enough. The frame was totally fine, I never requested a new pistol. Only that this*$2000*pistol function and appear "in new condition".*
The problem arises when I received the pistol back from DW a couple weeks ago. I took the pistol out of the case, it looks cosmetically beautiful. All the cosmetic flaws appear to be corrected. -REDACTED- so I tear the gun down for the first time before heading to the range to clean it up and get rid of the excessive shipping oil and black residue I assume is from the duty finish application.
I pull the bushing out, pull the slide off and immediately notice that the recoil spring is bent. I have never in 20 years owning and shooting 1911s seen a bent recoil spring. I'm not really sure how a recoil spring gets bent.*
Once I start inspecting the slide and find scratches through the finish and into the steel of the inner dust cover. I can only assume this is from the recoil spring, although it doesn't really look like it could be caused by that. I've never seen scratching inside a dust cover like this. None of my 15 or so other 1911s have scratches like this. The guide rod was not deburred, and is very sharp around the perimeter where it contacts the link and barrel. It appears this also chewed up the dust cover during fitting and test firing.
The finish is also worn off under the slide release to bare steel.*
There are also very obvious machine marks inside the ejection port inside the slide (The only part of the slide that is visible while the gun is put together.) Looks to be from worn out tooling, or a finishing step was skipped.
The frame rails are roughly worn to bare steel on the corners(from fitting procedure?). The slide has vertical and horizontal slop. Slight horizontal movement between slide/frame fitment is common obviously, but vertical movement is not what one expects from a*$2,000*1911. Yourself being a builder of 1911s, I'm sure you understand that. None of my 1911s, from*$500*filipino rock islands to Springers, or my other $1500+ DWs have vertical slide play that can be felt by hand, no more than a couple thousandths.
Redacted-. Oddly, it appears the recoil spring supplied with the pistol is damaged and possibly caused damage to the frame. I assume, obviously that this damage was not present at final inspection, but possibly happened during the last assembly or test firing before shipping. I don't know. But upon receipt, on first take down, the pistol is unacceptable and unfortunate. I have not fired it. It is in exactly the same condition I received it, minus the shipping oil.
I really do hope these issues are just bad luck, and not indicative of the current DW production. I have touted DWs quality and value for well over a decade to every 1911 guy and gal I have known. Being my first choice 1911 manufacturer, I really do hope this is just a fluke and bad luck.
Here are pictures of these issues. I have not fired this pistol since receiving back from DW warranty department.
E Miller



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[EmMiller]

Response from Keith.

E,
I took a look at your pictures and see nothing wrong.* The Bronze finish on the frame is a very thin finish that is bonded to the surface but is not impervious to scratching and wear.* The wear surfaces that you have shown me is the finish being warn to bare stainless.* Much like bluing or paint on a pistol would wear. **When we build a gun we test fire the pistol and then have all the finishing done and reassembled so that you have a pristine piece when you open the package.* Being that this piece was test fired before sending it back to you to ensure everything was good, you are going to see some wear.* The same as though you had shot it.
All of the black components are finished in our Duty treat, which is bonded with the steel and creates a super hard finish.* Much harder than the rest of the gun and will wear the Bronze finish more, in the normal wear spots.* The black finish also accentuates every detail in the steel, making what is nothing look like something.
The set in the spring is nothing to worry about.* It can be replaced but there is really no need.* It will still function fine.* Endre’s recommendation of the 28# recoil spring is excessive.* We use 22# Chrome silicon springs for our 5” and 6” guns.* If you insisted on running really hot loads, a heavier spring might be a good idea.

*We do not fit our guns super tight anymore.* The growing number of common consumers, does not allow this so we have to build in a little slop to account for customer neglect and reduce the number of customer returns.* With the pistol fully assembled and the use of a generous amount of a quality lubricant, such as FP-10, Militec- 1 or Weapon shield, any movement should be negligible and have no bearing on accuracy.
Yes the gun cost $2,000, however, in order to get a comparable gun that uses all the same components, similar finishes but address all the little tiny details of fitting and blending you would be paying $4,000 - $5,000.* Consequentially, you could also purchase a 6” 10mm from one of the Mass produced companies for $1300-$1800 which would be full of MIM, cast and plastic parts as well as inferior finishes.* We are still trying to give our customers the very best product we can at the best possible price.

Keith

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[EmMiller]

Keith,*
I'm not sure if you are trying to BS this problem away, but I really can't imagine you looked at the photos, and claim this damage is ok.
I sent DW a TIGHT pistol with no perceptible vertical slop. I returned the gun for cosmetic slide issues. I had put less than 100 rounds through it. Probably closer to 50 rounds in reality. This pistol had ZERO frame damage.*
I have aluminum frame 1911s with thousands of rounds through them that don't have a TENTH of this wear and damage.. I honestly can not believe you are saying that sending a pistol out in this condition is what DW is doing now.
As for building sloppy guns, I've handled dozens of DWs built in the last year or two. None of them have perceptible excessive vertical slide slop. I'm very familiar with current DW offerings. Including "blem" guns.
I sent you guys a pistol for cosmetic warranty issues. No frame issues. You sent back a gun with serious scratching and damage from a un-deburred guide rod and sloppy fitment of a new slide, seriously reducing the value of this BRAND NEW*$2,000*pistol. I also sent a pistol that was acceptably tight, with no perceptible vertical slop and an acceptable amount of horizontal slop, consistent with current DW pistols, I received back a pistol with excessive slop in both vertical and horizontal directions. The Bruin is touted as a tight fit HUNTING specific pistol, not a carry pistol that needs slightly looser tolerances to guarantee function. A pistol designed and built for hunting, and designed to be accurate at longer ranges than common*$1000*1911s. Anyone familiar with 1911s knows vertical slop is not normal, affects lockup if excessive, and just not right with a pistol like a 1911 which by design, has such a long interface between the slide and frame.
This pistol has what is commonly termed "battle rattle" by some 1911 groups. You can clearly hear the slop by shaking the gun in one hand. People buy DAN WESSON over brands like COLT to avoid this exact rattle, and lose fitment.*
I've shown the pistol to my close friends, guys that work at my local shop, -REDACTED- I've showed them the pistol after receiving it back from DW, and everyone seems to clearly agree it's completely unacceptable as a NEW pistol.
Its just hard for me to believe that Dan Wesson is going to stand behind this terrible workmanship and that a decade long customer can not trust ordering a BRAND NEW pistol sight unseen because of stuff like this.
I've included pictures of two of my other pistols, one cost about*$500*steel framed, and the other about*$1000*and anodized alloy frame, both have thousands of rounds through them and carried daily for years. Neither show anything like what you are saying is normal, and acceptable in a pistol with less than 100 rounds, and neither had perceptible vertical slop fresh from the mothership, and neither have any now.
I bought my first Cbob for*$789.00*brand spanking new from cabelas, obviously before the price jumps. That gun is as tight as tight can be, and still has nothing resembling these issues after thousands of rounds. That pistol cost nearly 1/3rd the price of this pistol. Now, I don't expect the same price, or even immaculate fitment quality, obviously that was a long time ago. But I don't expect to be told that other true custom pistols cost twice as much or more as this Bruin, so I should be accepting of terrible workmanship and clear mistakes made on a*$2,000*pistol, especially when they weren't there when I originally bought the pistol.*
EMiller


This was the last email. Keith offered to refund the pistol, and I sent it in.



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[churchmouse]

EM.......This is distressing to read. Very much so.

My TRP is scheduled to come home tomorrow. I anxious to s if it is put right. From the e-mailed invoice it has not been.

 

[EmMiller]

Sorry guys I know that's a lot of crap to read. That is only probably half of the total correspondences

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[churchmouse]

Sorry guys I know that's a lot of crap to read. That is only probably half of the total correspondences

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No worries. We as a group need to be aware.

 

[Areoflyer09]

Sorry guys I know that's a lot of crap to read. That is only probably half of the total correspondences

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Thanks for sharing all of that. Some of the wording that Keith used does not make for warm fuzzy feelings.