Discussion of establishing a Church security/safety team

[thunderchicken]

Keep your team together but not so well documented.
Keep training. If I were to be a part of something like this I would pay my own way. Courses/classes/ammo etc.
Just refresh your views and opinions with those who are like minded in this. Know what you are doing.
Not suggesting to break out full rogue but having prepared people in the area is not a wrong thing.

That's pretty much what the lawyer told us. Keep the basic idea and fundamentals just don't document so much. I/we need to start looking at more training. And, I think maybe quietly asking a person or two to show up on a Sun morning and report what their observations were.

Anyone have any training course recommendations?

 

[thunderchicken]

And the doubles are back.......

Crap, it seems to be contagious

 

[churchmouse]

Crap, it seems to be contagious

IKR.
Get with Coach here on Ingo. He would be someone local I would trust to get you all on the same page.
Another would be BBI. He will put on a class in these scenario's if properly motivated.

 

[Gluemanz28]

God wasn't too helpful in Texas.

Ever notice how many lightning rods are on churches these days.

Believe in all the gods you want ,worship all day I don't care but don't think for an instant that any god is going to deflect a bullet for you or anyone else.

What ever happened to god helps those who help themselves.

I only believe in one God and he was there, but so was the enemy.
God speaks to everyone, but not everyone wants to listen.

I’m not sure how you can be so certain that God hasn’t deflected a bullet for anyone.

He saved my life from the enemy that was trying to destroy me!

 

[historian]

I was on our safety team (we weren't security! For legal reasons) at my old church. We actually were put in place because the church was big. After Sunday School we locked up all the classrooms and checked all the bathrooms/back areas to make sure no one was doing anything untoward to the kids (sad world we live in). When the service started, we locked all the doors except for the main entrance and kept someone posted at the front desk at all times to greet people. We also met frequently and discussed safety issues. If there was a medical issue, we all knew where to go, had someone greet the ambulance and escort them into the building. Make sure traffic flow around the person with the issue wasn't a problem. Once again, from a facilities standpoint, it was good, because if someone left a sink on or a toilet was overflowing, we would be the first to find it.

 

[Woobie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OoTGkSNQgA&t=0s

Great video, and if you haven't,subscribe to him.

How have I never heard of this guy? Thanks!

 

[thunderchicken]

I was on our safety team (we weren't security! For legal reasons) at my old church. We actually were put in place because the church was big. After Sunday School we locked up all the classrooms and checked all the bathrooms/back areas to make sure no one was doing anything untoward to the kids (sad world we live in). When the service started, we locked all the doors except for the main entrance and kept someone posted at the front desk at all times to greet people. We also met frequently and discussed safety issues. If there was a medical issue, we all knew where to go, had someone greet the ambulance and escort them into the building. Make sure traffic flow around the person with the issue wasn't a problem. Once again, from a facilities standpoint, it was good, because if someone left a sink on or a toilet was overflowing, we would be the first to find it.

Good idea about checking all the classrooms, restrooms etc. We too secure all the doors and limit access to only one entry point and as much as possible we have someone in the foyer throughout the service. One obstacle we have is, it surprises me how many people are in & out of the service and how many kids think they can just go where they want

 

[Tactically Fat]

A) The word "security" can and be used against you by lawyers.

B) Try using the term "safety ministry"

C) Health and weather-related issues should be and will be your biggest concerns. Fire concerns are in that mix, too.

D) Communication between ministry members is key. At my church they use 2 way radios with ear pieces and remote switches to depress to talk.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm a bit concerned about the attorneys' advice.

Premises liability cases abound where a property owner ignored known risks and failed to take reasonable precautions.

Unfortunately, while I've considered (in an opfor kinda way) our church to be a relatively high profile target for years, the actual instances of attacks on places of worship appear to be increasing in frequency. The only real problem with taking institutional precautions is that you have to follow them, which isn't always easy when it comes to the mundane stuff.

But, this is a developing area of law in some ways - quantifying and litigating the "new" kinds of violence in our society.

 

[spencer rifle]

"God helps those who help themselves" is not a Biblical concept.

Our church has a SAFE team - I am a member but not the organizer. I'm just a grunt, so I don't know all the ins and outs. Our eldership was behind the formation of the SAFE team nearly a year ago, and we have had some training (including non-lethal/hand-to-hand and de-escalation) and a few meetings. Some team members are armed (concealed, with stations in the congregation and roaming outside), some are medical (with easily-findable red seat covers). Some are both. We have small rechargeable radios connecting team members, with a second channel for child care. We have a volunteer supervisor who sets up the schedule and sees to training issues. We also have neck tags identifying us as SAFE team. AFAIK there were no legal problems, but I'm not really in a position to know.

All our doors are numbered and almost all are locked during activities. We have evacuation plans for different events and threat locations.

There has been some discussion about having harder targets as part of the team - body armor, rifles, etc. Disadvantages - scares the sheeple and potential community members. Advantages - readiness to action, and when the perp thinks he has found what he is looking for (return fire source) he stops looking. Also might scare some potential problems away. Not likely to happen, but we are considering all options.

There has also been discussion about the lack of cover in the sanctuary. Presently it consists of chairs (not sturdy) and other people. Not good, but no intention of placing brick walls in convenient spots.

 

[T.Lex]

Seat covers? Like cushions?

Wow.

Some denominations have gone soft in the last 400 years or so.

We have hard wooden pews, and are thankful for them.



(The kneelers are usually padded, though, which is good for those of us with knee issues.)

 

[Cameramonkey]

Following. Lots of good, nuanced info already. And got me thinking about other types of safety we would have overlooked. (not all, as part of the review I was planning on getting a quote for an AED)

After observing a small group enter our church in the middle of the service a couple months back (benign, they were lost) I realized we had building security concerns but hadnt had a chance to talk to the pastor about a solution. Sunday nite my wife and I emailed the pastor to start that discussion. Monday I was advised by the pastor that our first security team meeting is this week and Mrs Monkey and I are on it. (We were drafted ) Apparently her husband also carries, and they were already making plans when we emailed them.

And yes, the lord does help those who help themselves. I never understood the mentality of being totally passive and relying on an invisible man in the sky to protect you. (hint, He doesnt work that way) Which reminds me of my favorite joke on the matter:

A raging flood comes due to heavy rain.
A boat floats up to a house and finds a man standing up to his ankles in water.
"Get in the boat!"
"No. The Lord is my savior. He will provide for me."
Several hours later the boat comes back to find that man on his roof, with the water lapping at the gutters.
"Get in the boat!"
"No. The Lord is my savior. He will provide for me."
Several hours later a national guard helicopter flies over the house and they see him standing on the chimney to escape the water.
They say over the loudspeaker "Get in the basket"
He waves them off yelling "The Lord is my savior. He will provide for me."

Scene shifts to the pearly gates. The man is standing there visibly upset and confused.
St Peter says to him "What is wrong?"
He replies "I put my faith in God and He let me down! I shouldnt be here!"
St Peter replies "We sent you two boats and a helicopter! What more did you want!?!?!?"

 

[JettaKnight]

Seat covers? Like cushions?

Wow.

Some denominations have gone soft in the last 400 years or so.

We have hard wooden pews, and are thankful for them.



(The kneelers are usually padded, though, which is good for those of us with knee issues.)

That's because some of us have hour longer sermons, completely in English.

Kneeling.


And for those churches with a more sedated worship style, consider adding an individual like this to your security team.

 

[churchmouse]

The church I work at part time as maintenance had me go around the building and check every door for function. I believe they are concidering lock down after service starts with some one at the main to let late comers enter. This is a really good idea.
I have repaired a couple of the doors so they will allow egress when locked to entering

 

[HoughMade]

So, book of Esther. Did God use Esther to deliver his people?

If yes, how did he do this? By wiping out the enemies Himself? No. However, Esther influenced the king to allow God's people to defend themselves. God has many options when it comes to defending His people:

The king’s edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate the armed men of any nationality or province who might attack them and their women and children...

Esther 8:11

God may even allow evil people to kill and destroy (by exercising their own free will) for reasons we may never understand. However, there is no general theological principle excluding self-defense and requiring reliance on supernatural intervention. The question is whether you trust God, not whether you trust God to do what you want Him to do without your involvement. That may or may not be His will.

 

[historian]

Some good things to consider as well:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/7-ways-prepare-church-violence/

 

[rhino]

Re: training

Emergency medical/first aid training should be #1 on the list. Whether you have a gunshot wound or a heart attack or a diabetic issue, rapid medical assistance until the paramedics arrive is critically important.

After that, I would put training that focuses on decision making, which should include force-on-force scenarios.

Marksmanship needs to be at a minimum standard level for everyone involved. Pick a qualification course and make sure everyone can pass it on demand.

Proper gun handling skills and risk management are also critically important. A lot of people are fantastic marksmen, but their gun handling skills suck and many of them are downright dangerous. A related problem is that those people either don't know it, or they have an inaccurate assessment of their abilities. Everyone involved should participate in the training, regardless of what training they've had in the past. You need to know how they handle themselves and their weapons now, not when they were a Green Beret or when they were on the SWAT team or when their uncle taught them everything he knew.

 

[BrettonJudy7]

In Luke 22:36 Jesus tells his disciples to "sell your cloak and buy a sword".

A church should be able to defend itself. What are the Indiana laws about having long guns stored in a church? When handguns are not enough.

 

[Cameramonkey]

In Luke 22:36 Jesus tells his disciples to "sell your cloak and buy a sword".

A church should be able to defend itself. What are the Indiana laws about having long guns stored in a church? When handguns are not enough.

a gun is a gun is a gun, basically. The law in IN only addresses "firearms" for prohibited places. So if its legal to have a handgun there, its legal for a long gun.

 

[churchmouse]

a gun is a gun is a gun, basically. The law in IN only addresses "firearms" for prohibited places. So if its legal to have a handgun there, its legal for a long gun.

But to have them stored there is the question. Would the church have to own them.